Downvoting on Hive: a sensitive topic

in #hive-17457811 days ago

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As most of us know downvoting posts and comments on Hive is used to maintain content quality and prevent abuse of the system. The ability to downvote acts as a corrective measure against things like spam, plagiarism, or low-quality content. Downvotes reduce the rewards assigned to a post or comment. With this every user on Hive has a possibility to reduce rewards of blogs and/or comments that don’t add value to the community.

It's obvious that downvotes are being used to downvote content that contains plagiarism or is offensive. And we see downvotes being used this way quite a bit.

But downvotes can also be used to balance the distribution of the rewards. When a blog is overrewarded, every Hive user can use his or her downvote to bring the reward for that post down.
But this is a controversial topic within the Hive community, as downvotes can often provoke personal reactions.

I was triggered to create this post by a snap from @godfish who brought up this subject.
He created a poll with some questions if anyone every uses downvotes.
https://peakd.com/@godfish/re-peaksnaps-smvrqo

The poll has 15 different votes, but nobody has downvoted "over-rewarded" content.
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When is content over-rewarded?

We can have a long discussion about when content is over-rewarded. I think there everyone has its own idea about it.
What is a well written blog worth?
Do we really think, despite the fact that it could have taken you a couple of hours to write a blog, that a rewarded of more than $100 dollar can be justified?
Maybe for charity, but for a normal post. Personally I don't think so.
Yes, the community decides about the value of a post. Both with upvotes or downvotes, but the latter can be kind of tricky...

Repercussions

Downvotes on Hive for content that is not offensive or plagiarism isn't very common. It's not like we see on other (Web2.0) platforms like reddit or Youtube where downvotes are common.
It surely has to do that you as a downvoter have a direct impact on the payout of a post.
But the rewards on your content are temporary. They aren't yours until payout after 7 days.

I've seen quite some cases in the past where a downvote was taken personal and caused a downvote war between two Hivers.
It is that risk of pissing someone off with a downvote that withholds me from downvoting content I think is over-rewarded.
Large stakeholders could easily zero out all of your posts with their stake if you like, so you don't want to step on their toes.
I don't want to risk making a larger stakeholder angry with a downvote that might result in repercussions that will zero out all my future rewards.

Surely not all content creators will be offended by downvotes. Like @godfish mentions in his snaps post he wouldn't mind if his blogs with much rewards will receive downvotes to distribute the rewards better. And there are more in the discussion that think the same about that.
But you never know how the author will take it.

A positive exception I want to mention is the @smooth account. I see this account does regularly downvote posts that have quite a high payout. But that account isn't a personal one since it doesn't post any blogs itself, so has no problem with potential repercussions.
But I do like to know how the person(s) behind this account make their decisions.

How can we do to solve this problem?

  • First of all I'd like to know if you think over-rewarded posts is a problem
  • When do you think a blog over-rewarded?
  • Does someone who has invested time and money have more rights to receive a high reward than other users?
  • Do we want a maximum amount of rewards a post can have?
  • Should we downvote these posts to have a more fair distribution of rewards?
  • And how can we prevent repercussions?
  • Do we want to normalize downvotes within Hive?
  • How can we use downvoting without having to fear for repercussions?
  • Is there perhaps a role for the curation initiatives on Hive?
  • I'm really curious how you all think about this subject and especially the ones that regularly receive large payouts on their posts. Do you think your post is worth that amount?
  • Are there any other ideas on this topic you want to bring up?

I hope we can have a nice discussion about this topic in the comments!
You can answer one or more of the questions above or share your thought about this subject.

Feel free to reblog this post or tag people to draw more attention to the discussion. The more opninions, the better!

(Disclaimer: Image created with ChatGPT. I bet you already noticed that because there is a finger missing 😂)



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FriendlyMoose

Creating blogs about photography, cycling, gardening, craft beer and more...


Hive Photographers Unite!

If you are a photographer on Hive too, come join us in the Hive Photographer Discord Channel so we van make Hive a better place for photographers!

One of the initiatives is the #AAP hashtag. By adding this hashtag to your post you indicate that you are open to critics (tips and advice) from other photographers.
You can also check out posts from other photographers that would like to have feedback by checking out the following link: https://peakd.com/created/aap

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@friendlymoose, I paid out 0.709 HIVE and 0.000 HBD to reward 10 comments in this discussion thread.

Downvote is life.

It's a "touchy" subject, to be sure.

Should blatant violations — like phishing attempts, scam links and so forth be downvoted? Absolutely!

Should obvious plagiarism be downvoted? Absolutely!

I think these things happen, get downvoted, and then typically pass by without comment.

The actual controversy — in my opinion — arises as a result of a small percentage of all downvotes, most of them centered around what I'd call the "personal vendetta downvote" or maybe "retaliatory downvotes." These cases become quite damaging because of so0called collateral damage in which a creator/author who is not part of the fight suddenly gets obliterated by a downvote because they got an UPvote from someone someone else has a pathological hatred for.

Whereas I recognize that "we're all human" and blah-blah-blah it is really juvenile behavior most people outgrow in 5th grade of school...

As for "overvalued content?" That's a tough one. It is a slippery slope because there are multiple implications. What makes it tough (at least to me) is the fluctuating price of Hive.

On the surface I could agree with a highly rewarded piece of garbage getting downvoted a bit, particularly if there's something sketchy about where the upvotes come from.

Consider that your 32,000HP gives perhaps a $0.40 upvote. But that's with 23-cent Hive. Let's randomly speculate that Hive goes to $7.00 in an altcoin bull market. That's 30x from here. Now your vote is still the same number of "Hive rewards" as it was before, but the external value is now $12.00. If you were ready to give an excellent piece of content a 100% upvote at 23-cent Hive, is it still worthy of a 100% upvote at $7.00 Hive?

Let me complicate it a little more: We're supposedly trying to spread the use of crypto, and reduce the influence of Fiat money. So — philosophically speaking! — in the above example, is the content worth "X number of HIVE rewards" or are we still going to measure its worthiness in terms of fiat Dollars, Euros, Yen and so forth?

Let me complicate it a little more, no. 2: "Influencers" on external social media often make hundreds and thousands of dollars per piece of published content... which has historically been one of the things Hive could NOT offer. Is there "value" in having high quality content (in the case of having $7.00 Hive) being rewarded hundreds of dollars simply as a "draw" to get more external creators interested in Hive?

Certainly a worthy topic, and thanks for bringing it up @friendlymoose!

=^..^=

Yes, it is indeed a complicated and touchy subject.
I didn't even take the price of Hive itself into account, but that is fluctuating indeed.
And the different value of money around the world. 5 Hive won't buy me a coffee where in other parts of the world you can feed a whole family with it.

I think downvotes are often misused, never used it.

They sometimes are indeed.

Do you think it is a good thing that it's used to lower the rewards on overrewarded posts?

Overrewarded is not the problem for me.
downvoting a small account by a big whale can be a problem.
For the big whale the downvote is peanuts.
For the small account it is a big loss, espacially if it is going on on each posting.
It feels like censorship.
Who is the judge to decide what is good content and what is bad?

I don't see a lot of small accounts being downvoted by whales. Unless they are misbehaving that is.

Who is the judge to decide what is good content and what is bad?

Everybody. That's why you upvote in the first place ;) Or do you upvote bad content?

No, but why the downvotes?
I have never downvoted anything.

And that is perfectly fine :) Downvotes are just another tool that might come in handy very soon in a mass scale:

https://peakd.com/hive-174578/@anonyi/abuse-report-an-80-rep-account-neck-deep-in-multi-account-and-farming-abuse-alokkumar121

That's a nice summary. I've been downvoted by @smooth a couple of times, basically whenewer my posts gets into Trending, and I've never ever complained about that. The posts did great anyway.

The way we, both as individuals and as a community, use downvotes, shows how mature we are. We should use them wisely, just like upvotes.

I also think enough is enough... But why complain when you receive more than enough?

Do you cast downvotes yourself too to reduce rewards?

Of course not. I could reject rewards, though ;)

Equalizing is something important, but my stake doesn't allow too much for now!
for example, if you use splinterlands tag in any type of post you can get a vote of @splinterboost vote $0.07-$0.10 ( it is automatic)... I was one time pursuing people with no Splinterlands content abusing of the tag to get this vote, some learn some others don't. Since the account is totally a zombie now and will continue doing that it is worthless to continue this job and too much time consuming.

Thanks for your feedback.

Equalizing is something important, but my stake doesn't allow too much for now!

A larger number of smaller downvotes can also reduce the rewards of a post.

( it is automatic)
Automatic votes is a part of the problem indeed.
But this is abuse which I think the splinterboost account should take action on. But do you mean by zombie that no one controls the account anymore?

the owner disappeared for a while now... so everything is in the automatic and you can't reach out cryptogonome anywhere...either by discord or blockchain hehehe

it is an account that receives multiple delegations and distribute delegation rewards, and the vote is anything that uses splinterlands tag... I tried to go in their server but it is a dead zone

While we are talking he started to powerdown his main account:
https://peakd.com/@crypt0gnome/wallet

part of what I think it happened is...they were doing automatic report posts...a known downvoter started to downvote it, they decided to burn all the rewards but still the DV continued...probably the guy just moved on with his life!

Responderé en español ya que quién sienta curiosidad podrá utilizar la opción de traducir.

En mi corta experiencia en Hive, en la cual empecé con el pie izquierdo por no conocer sus reglas, creo que la cuantía de los pagos de los post tienen una relación más directa con la red de contactos que se crean, con esto no quiero decir que sean menos objetivos, si no que si tienes un gran círculo de personas que te "conocen" y a las que has caído bien, te recompensan de una mejor forma.

También noto como un flujo de recompensas mayor a los usuarios de primer mundo que al resto... Imagino que es porque tienen experiencias más bonitas y nadie quiere ver fotos de un barrio pobre si puede ver fotos de la isla de Creta o algún crucero lujoso.

Mi final opinión es que no hay forma de recompensar justamente porque siempre como humanos tendremos actitudes humanas: obsesión por la belleza y glamour, preferencia por amigos y hasta por personas de nuestro mismo país.

Admito que cualquier recompensa que haya recibido se debe más a la bondad de los usuarios que a la calidad de mis posteos, para ser honesta.

I admit that any rewards I have received are due more to the kindness of users than the quality of my posts, to be honest.

That is an honest confession, but I think you are right. As I mention in my post people that have invested in a network of friends tend to get more upvotes because of that.

But what is your opinion about downvotes? Because that is the actual topic of my blog? Do you think we should use downvotes to distribute the rewards in a more honest way? And how do you think we can accomplish it?

Sinceramente no creo que usar el downvote ayude mucho, y se podría interpretar como una cacería de brujas, de todas formas, el trabajar en una red de contactos también implica esfuerzo, si fuera solo la calidad la que mandara no existiría el marketing ni las publicidades.

Creo que ya había respondido indirectamente, al decir que no existe la justicia ni la equidad en entornos sociales, pero lo diré más claro, no creo que esa sea la solución, ya que Hive es también una red social, no?

Hola mi amiga su blog es muy interesante tenga mas orgullo =)

Interesante tu análisis, estoy de acuerdo sobre la red de amigos. Si conoces a las personas correctas, tendrás un upvote alto. Pero eso no siempre es cierto. Hay una tendencia de votos por países? Sí, pero no tiene nada que ver con el primer y tercer mundo. La comunidad de Venezuela recibe muchos votos, así como otros países que tienen representantes en grandes curadurías.

Gracias, muy amable, pero creo que si se hace un análisis fino, si hay más recursos hacia el primer mundo, porque también tienen más antigüedad y también pueden hodlear tokens y tener votos más valiosos.

En cuánto a Venezuela, les debo dar mi admiración porque la crisis los hizo encontrar formas de ganar dinero y se organizan muy bien.
https://www.xataka.com/magnet/venezuela-dio-mejores-clases-economia-hace-cuatro-anos-truco-combatir-crisis-videojuego

no estoy criticando la gente. La gente no tiene culpa. pero hay un nicho de votos de curadoria con suporte de ballenas de europa y etc. Dentro do que dice hay una condicion de caridad en hive, hay suporte de valueplan para iniciativas alla.
Pero no son los top20 rewards.

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esto es del post: https://peakd.com/hive-133987/@dalz/top-hive-earners-by-category-or-authors-curators-witnesses-dao-hbd-interest-or-october-2024

venemos otras cosas... usuarios antigos qui se encuandran na sua desricion, pero lo digo que hay solamente 2 o 3, entonces 3 cuentas del mismo usuario que es una ballenas, otro quie tiene 2 cuentas y si favorita de la curacion que es amigo y una argentina que no si encuadra en nada pero hace publicaciones de viagens que es algo popular en hive :P

!INDEED

(4/5)
@gwajnberg! @ladyaryastark Totally agrees with your content! so I just sent 1 IDD to your account on behalf of @ladyaryastark.

Indeed Logo

Well, on this top 20 list, I see several community/project accounts (at least 5), and at least 5 people from developing countries - two Indian guys, a Chinese person, and two girls from LatAm. I don't really know where most people are from, though.

All the people on this list consistently spend hours on Hive every day and have been building their reputation and fanbase for years. And I guess the are all fluent in English, which may not be their first language. It's about what you do rather than where you're from, @ladyaryastark.

!INDEED

Now that is interesting :) Seems like the downvoting discussion backfires :) Let's see what does he have to say to it.

hahahah I don't believe in destiny but the world has crazy coincidences :P

(1/5)
@godfish! @ladyaryastark Totally agrees with your content! so I just sent 1 IDD to your account on behalf of @ladyaryastark.

Indeed Logo

I would just like to ask something - is there a limit to prevented or over-rewarded posts?
Because what is good and what is not is somewhat subjective and comes mainly from cultural differences between people. Maybe it would not be a bad idea to set (and publicize) a limit to where one can go in rewarding. And beyond that, is it too rewarding? What do I know...

I think there is no limit for rewards. And indeed the value of a post is subjective and also depends where you live and what the standards are.
But when you compare two blogs of the same quality, should we downvote the one that has $80 rewards because the other one only has $5?

I don't know. I don't have the answer. It depends on the individual. Some will choose to do it, some won't.

It is a thorny issue, but I think that behind a downvote you can clearly see the intention of the person who gives it.
What is distressing is to see wars between people using this mechanism and power. But everyone is free to do what they want. I am in favour of always giving love, even if I had to call someone's attention for something wrong like plagiarism, abuse, and any bad behaviour on the blockchain, I would also do it (I have done it) with love.
I always say this place is life. It's people behind the screens deciding, feeling... balancing the scales is always the great challenge of humanity... hopefully we can find the formula here.

Greetings!

I am in favour of always giving love

That is sweet. For me it depends on the intentions. When I detect intentional fraud I am pretty strict and throw a downvote.

And what is your opinion about downvoting overrewarded content?

I said that one recognises the intention behind the downvote. And it is a very subjective thing to overvalue or undervalue something. But obviously those who have considerable voting power are the ones doing it. They are also making use of their assessment, which is very personal and subjective, in the same way that those who give positive and weighty votes do when they see a post poorly rewarded.

Question, if one downvotes, would he earn from the amount which was upvoted to the post? I've read something about it in the past but I can't remember when or who wrote it.

I've never downvoted ever since because it hurt a lot when I got downvoted.

I do like to know how the person(s) behind [the @smooth] account make their decisions

I have a mental framework that Hive as a blockchain is a business and if it pays out more in post rewards than it gains in exposure, marketing, word-of-mouth promotion, external attention, etc., then it is losing money and the value of the blockchain will ultimately decline over time. As a holder of a good number of HIVE tokens (mostly staked as HP), I obviously do not want to see it decline in value. Of course, value can fluctuate in the short term for good or bad reasons, but over time I am confident that my mental model is correct.

As such, I use my downvoting power to nudge down rewards that I see as costing us more than the value the post is likely to generate. These are mostly highly rewarded posts that are, for lack of a better term "cookie cutter". In that category I would include cooking, travel, personal blog, photography, etc. These are content categories that are a dime a dozen on the internet, and Hive content is usually no better than average when it comes to being truly compelling and attention-getting (often worse).

I make downvotes that are small relative to my voting power because experience tells me that the negative response and community conflict that results is much more severe when it is perceived that one large account is unilaterally "taking away" a large part of rewards (though in theory one could certainly argue that any stakeholder is "entitled" to vote their stake as they see fit). So I hope that my own downvotes serve as a nudge, and others who likewise agree that these (or other) posts are a drag on the value of Hive (which I'm sure we all want to go up) will either follow along and also make small downvotes, or reconsider whether to upvote such posts so much in the future.

I didn't expext you to react anymore. Thanks for this detailed reply!

As such, I use my downvoting power to nudge down rewards that I see as costing us more than the value the post is likely to generate.

That's an interesting one. How do you measure the value it is likely to generate?
Is it the exposure to attract new users on Hive?
When I'm honest, my blogs with $5 rewards are unlikely to bring $5 in return for the community in ways of exposure. But do my posts need to be downvoted then as well?

I know you are downvoting posts that have way more rewards than that, and I think it's good that you're doing this.

I do question myself how any post that has over $50 rewards is going to have a return for the community, let alone posts with over $100. Maybe indeed the posts that are not a dime a dosin.

So I hope that my own downvotes serve as a nudge, and others who likewise agree that these (or other) posts are a drag on the value of Hive (which I'm sure we all want to go up) will follow along and also make small downvotes.

They surely are a good nudge. Only the anger and retalliation downvotes can cause stop me from doing it too.
I've seen too many downvote wars and I don't want my account that I've built up in years being destroyed because I downvote a post make the rewards more fair in my eyes.

I think I'm not the only one in this and that makes it difficult to trigger a change.
That's why I ask myself in my blog whether it would be a task for the larger curation initiatives to not only upvote, but also downvote posts.

How do you measure the value it is likely to generate?

It's an opinion but a question I ask myself in forming this opinion is how much would any for-profit (or even sustainable non-profit) web site pay for like content, and then adjusting down for the fact that we don't directly generate ad revenue and most of those other sites do. For things like personal blogs, non-remarkable photography, routine (often mass produced by the same few posters) travelogues, the answer is very little, certainly not $50 per post.

my blogs with $5 rewards are unlikely to bring $5 in return for the community in ways of exposure. But do my posts need to be downvoted then as well?

Maybe in an ideal world, but I don't personally have time to pay attention to those. I can definitely see the clear imbalance in many high payout posts.

Also, I'd argue that wide distribution of small amounts of rewards has it's own value in keeping people engaged. But a high concentration of rewards to a few posters without much of a following doesn't do that. That's another reason to nudge down the high payouts. Not everyone is necessarily aware, but the way the Hive reward pool works mechanically, any rewards reduced from high payouts by downvotes goes directly to increase the broader small payouts.

any rewards reduced from high payouts by downvotes goes directly to increase the broader small payouts.

I do wonder how that technically works. When someone has voted on my post and someone downvotes it with the same amount, the money isn't added up to other posts, is it. And it also doesn't give the rest of the curators more to spend.

All of the payouts come from a pool that is a fixed size at any point in time. When one post gets less, others get more. Downvoting one post is equivalent to upvoting every other post getting a payout by a small amount, assuming it were actually feasible to do that.

Ah, so when (hypothetically) there are only two posts with votes, both with $5 rewards and one gets zeroed out by a downvote, the payout for the other increases to $10?

It's interesting to know how it really works. I think many people don't know how it works.

Yes that example is correct.

Another interesting point is that if one post gets massively more upvotes, its rewards will increase to say 9.99 and the other will decrease to 0.01 without being downvoted.

Downvotes and upvotes are both ways of allocating the pool between posts.