Hive&#x27;s Dilemma: To Network State or Not to Network State?

poshtoken 2 years ago

_{The rewards earned on this comment will go directly to the people( @deepresearch, @taskmaster4450le ) sharing the post on Twitter as long as they are registered with @poshtoken. Sign up at https://hiveposh.com.}

ndk.focus 2 years ago

Network States. Very interesting concept I will need to dig into further.

Podcast link for anyone interested:
https://thenetworkstate.com/podcast

As for monetary independence, I think Hive hasn't arrived there yet. The foundation exists in the design of the technology, but as for right now, I don't know that anyone is buying food for their families or paying utility bills with HIVE or HBD. Not directly. Indirectly is the only way, by selling through exchanges for fiat. Which in so doing weakens the network in the aggregate.

Of course, this general issue is true for all cryptocurrencies.

I agree that Hive is well ahead of the curve in it's journey to independence but we still have a way to go before it's a separate, self-sustaining economy. This is necessary to satisfy a definition of monetary independence in my view, but I'm interested in hearing yours.

0.52 VYB

deepresearch 2 years ago

Full Hive economy might be impossible to achieve in an environment of multiple network and nation states cooexisting, there will always be somebody outside demanding exchanging currency to accept payment. Only Hive beiny layer 1 for all economical activity all there (technically seems to be possible but IMO very unlikely) could guarantee such model. This is an emergent phenomenon coming from huge network effect.

Monetary independence is about something else. It's about group of people being in touch with their currency and its workings. Having direct stake and interest in this currency. Having opt-in, opt-out possibility of ecosystem and changing it to another one. Hive direct influence by voting with stake to vote for witnessess who also have a stake in system which incentives them for making decisions in favor of the best interest of currency and community.

In legacy financial system these incentives are decoupled and fiat currency doesn't actually belong to people using it. Non-electable institutions can with one decision change any parameter and ibfluence life of milliones without any responsibility. Having monetary independence is having ability to opt-out from this pathology.

ndk.focus 2 years ago

Full Hive economy might be impossible to achieve in an environment of multiple network and nation states cooexisting, there will always be somebody outside demanding exchanging currency to accept payment. Only Hive beiny layer 1 for all economical activity all there (technically seems to be possible but IMO very unlikely) could guarantee such model. This is an emergent phenomenon coming from huge network effect.

I agree, but I'm not meaning 100% Hive Global Economic Domination when I talk about this independence. I mean self-sufficiency moreso. Putting aside the impossibility of it happening, because I agree with you there as well, total domination by anything to the extinguishment of all else would be undesirable and destructive, even if it was Hive doing that domination.

Hive is just inert code without the community of individuals behind it. When we're at a point where people can in-turn support themselves by interacting only within the Hive economy would we have the kind of indepedence I mean. I think I understand now that we're talking about two different concepts and what I'm saying is possibly better described as Economic Independence. Thank you for clarifying, I really do appreciate it.

However, I also think the two are intimately linked. Consider how you say:

Non-electable institutions can with one decision change any parameter and ibfluence life of milliones without any responsibility.

We are in absolute agreement that this is a bad thing.

Having monetary independence is having ability to opt-out from this pathology.

My point is that yes, we can opt-out with Hive as it is now, but that opting out is pretty abstract, because on a long enough timescale any one of us will be forced to opt-in again in order to feed and house ourselves.

0.00 VYB

diggndeeper.com 2 years ago

Your thought-provoking post on the future of Network States, Hive, and the broader implications of decentralized ledger technology has been truly enlightening. Before encountering your article, I was unaware that there was such definition in the concept of Network States, but your perspective has led me to spend a significant amount of time researching and contemplating this fascinating idea.

My own project, DiggnDeeper, is centered around exploring principles similar to those underlying Network States. As a result, your post has not only expanded my knowledge but also provided valuable insights that I can apply to my own endeavors. I deeply appreciate the opportunity to learn and think about these concepts and how they relate to the future of digital sovereignty and decentralized communities.

As you mentioned, monetary independence through blockchain technology has been a game-changer for the concept of digital sovereignty and allows communities to define their own values and governance structures. This decentralization of power is at the heart of the movement, and it's essential for projects like Hive to remain faithful to these principles.

Your concerns about the potential risks of attempting to fit Hive into a larger narrative and placing it under an infrastructure-provider umbrella are valid. We need to recognize that our primary strength lies in bottom-up organization and community-driven approach. Instead of trying to encompass other entities or dilute core principles, projects should focus on strengthening and expanding our own communities.

To ensure that we remain at the forefront of the Network States movement, it's crucial for us to regularly engage in discussions like this one. By reflecting on our goals, values, and progress, we can continue to evolve in a way that stays true to our founding principles while also adapting to a rapidly changing world. How else can we remain vigilant and focused? Hive even offers us the incentive.

I believe that our community should focus on solidifying our position as decentralized and sovereign while also remaining open to collaboration with like-minded projects. By doing so, we can continue to thrive as Network States that are grounded in our core values and dedicated to fostering a sense of ownership and belonging amongst our members.

deepresearch 2 years ago

I'm happy to read that my posts impacted your reality this way.

I mean, Hive is a still great infrastructure provided technology, however this is a limiting and not really sexy narrative to go on with. We should diverge marketing channels, depending on the target. But pitching Hive as an infrastructer provider for Network States is my concern.

Big agree on the rest of your comment. Thank you for your input!

0.00 VYB

The Hive Gamification Proposal

hivebuzz 2 years ago

Congratulations @deepresearch! You have completed the following achievement on the Hive blockchain And have been rewarded with New badge(s)

You received more than 35000 upvotes.
Your next target is to reach 40000 upvotes.

_{You can view your badges on your board and compare yourself to others in the Ranking}
_{If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word STOP}

Check out our last posts:

0.00 VYB

mercadomaestro 2 years ago

I am an historian by passion and by lifelong education. I have studied government for as long as I've been alive, I've seen the rise and downfall of city-states and now, nation-states.

Both models depended on centralized power controlling everything around it. The concept of a Network State completely throws that away and presents a new, innovative approach. I'd like to see more of a fleshed out proposal as to how it might work in practice.

I say that, because this reminds me of the original concept underpinning the Cosmos Ecosystem & Hub. Open-source, SDK, buildable, but, too much centralized control over the $ATOM token limits Cosmos' ability to serve as a Network State.

Posted Using LeoFinance ^Beta

0.17 VYB

edje 2 years ago

Agree with you HIVE need a story, a vision. Are we a social network chain/ecosystem? A gaming ecosystem? A dApp ecosystem, ie a general purpose chain? Maybe a future payment chain? From the feature we have in the base layer, we are a social network. That said, I dont think we have conpeling enough social network experience. To many UIs are not sexy, and even not easy to use (think FB, Twiiter, Instagram look and feel with tremendous fast UIs and totally optimised UX experences). For a general purpose chain we 1) miss smart contract on base layer 2) we need to move blogging rewards away from base layer. Though for some time I was inclined to go general purpose full swing, these days I feel we shall stay social network chain. Though whatever we choose as a collective, we shall up our game in creating the services that will play with the masses. And yes, I do believe we shall select one course and all dev shall be fousing on contributing to rhat one course we selected. Whatever that course maybe.

0.45 VYB

5 votes

deepresearch 2 years ago

The trick is to choose narrative which is sexy, not limiting in any way and possibly simple. I believe network state fullfils these premises and makes Hive stand out of the crowd.

0.05 VYB

edje 2 years ago

I just believe we are far off becoming a Network State. Dont know the exact theory of such, but feel we need direct influence on governance, not through witnesses of which most are not looking at as as a society but just focus on technicals. Added to that, we need mucho better governance tools and perhaps also governance itself need to be more democratic on quite a number of aspects. Though I agree, maybe heading towards Network State may be a great road to walk.

0.12 VYB

deepresearch 2 years ago

The theory is a vision in one man's head. There is no official council of accepting or rejecting Network States. There is no need for constitution and say now we are this or that.

If it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck its a duck.

We need to dump old mental maps about statehood. Network states might vary, have different modes of operating, different governance model, different level of identification with the whole idea. I believe it's more about story at this level.

Noone know what network states will turn out to be in 10 or 50 years. We have one highly not institutionalised, organicly grown, very transparent, tested and open. There might be different ones. The basic thing is: we are group of people acting in coordination for a common interest with monetary independence and a governance model and set of rules.

0.10 VYB

edje 2 years ago

I didn't realise The Network State is so fresh. Just found the podcast channel over on YT; Started a month or so ago. Also found the book itself. Bookmarked both for later reading and listening.

Interestingly, when I first joined the network of which I won't say the name; The one that preceded us, from which we were born; I ended up in conversation with more than a few peeps about what may be called Network State.

True, a network state doesn't have to go by the concepts we know from nation states. That said, I can imagine The Network State requires some to more of the governance models we use in the nation-state model. For years I didn't really think about this topic anymore. I suppose, need to get my head around it again, since I do very much like experimentation with anything that is out of the norm, or even completely new and undiscovered. I suppose the reason why am hanging in with the HIVE community for the last 6 years 😎

To the note of HIVE being the only one, or part of a few projects that could be, or become a Network State: I think many more projects can be classified as such or heading towards such. Many projects have their communities, and many of them do allow community voting in some way, even if these are polls in a Telegram Group or on Discord. Many do allow at least influence on other governance aspects of things.

Thanks for posting about this, and our conversation, since it did spark renewed interest in digging into this topic. Maybe I should also re-connect with a community formed around this crypto community building a Network State and Nation-State in one, the crypto way 😉

ndk.focus 2 years ago

we need to move blogging rewards away from base layer

I see this idea being brought up from time to time and I wonder what for? I have not seen it explained. As in, for what purpose would such change serve? What benefit would come from it and conversely, what problems are caused now by having author rewards on the base layer?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, literally that I don't know and am curious, and wonder if you can share the reasoning?

0.10 VYB

edje 2 years ago

Even when HIVE should stay and/or focus on being a social chain powering different forms of social networks, the HIVE distribution to content on the base layer focusses many users on earning HIVE instead of second-layer tokens linked to new social network initiatives. I think that prevents other tokens to become successful, or at least, makes it more difficult. Added to that, plenty of HIVE is distributed in auto voting manner, or blindly manual voting. Both are kinda not how proof-of-brain should work.

However, I do very much like the distribution of HIVE to whomever, large or small players. So maybe we shall not remove the distribution of HIVE to whomever, but implement a mechanism to distribute HIVE to those contributing to the HIVE eco-system. One of the ideas I have is to establish a kinda distributed governance system which decides on HIVE distributions to users based on all sorts of criteria, not posts or comments though. Such a governance system shall be very active, reviewing on high frequency who should get some of the HIVE we mint every single day. Criteria should be dynamically determined by the community. Those who decide how to distribute should be elected constantly. Many different decision-makers, in independent groups, should be established. How to implement such a governance system, I didn't really detail yet. Somehow I like the set-up of EdenOS, a multi-layer election system with randomness included and the need for re-elections every couple of months. Other governance systems can be thought of as well, of course. But the trick is, those elected should be easily removed when they do 'wrong', whatever we decide is wrong. Added to all of that, we need the proper tools to support such a governance system. I suppose we shall experiment hell out all this before moving into such a new system 😉

When we removed content awarding on the base layer, I believe 2nd layer social tokens get more chances. Plus we reduce the fights over how HIVE is currently distributed. The aforementioned big blind manual votes, the auto votes to lazy authors and all that. And it also helps to position HIVE chain as a true general-purpose chain since the content-rewarding aspects aren't part of the base layer anymore.