Left-Wing Chronicles: The police are ticketing children in school?

in #hive-1679223 years ago

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Hm yeah so I was skimming this current events post that @preparedwombat so often... prepares... and I get to the end and I see this:

Illinois law bans schools from fining students. So local police are doing it for them, issuing thousands of tickets a year for truancy, vaping, fights and other misconduct. Children are then thrown into a legal system designed for adults.
And I'm like...

Well that's fucking interesting.

So I'm reading this article and honestly I can't even read the thing because it's just so enraging and stupid. In the middle of me skimming it I head into the other room and ask my girlfriend about it and she's basically like (paraphrasing):

Yeah, duh, how did you not know about this, it's been going on for like ten years.

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Part two is not really necessary.

It was immediately obvious to me that there's already a blatant statistical disconnect as to the fairness of these tickets. Another classic case of the poor people tax. Actually I need to do a part 2 for that post because after writing the first one I found a ton more information on it. Oh the sweet irony of being taxed for being poor. Never gets old.

I'm personally of the age where I was in that weird transition period when cops were just starting to appear on campus. It seemed ridiculous then and it's clearly even more ridiculous now. I can't even imagine what it would have been like to see those pigs writing tickets for stupid shit like having a vape pen or "assault and battery" because someone pushed someone else. Like, wow. The desperation of these money collection techniques by force is just a thing of legend. A legend that needs to be put to its final resting place.

If you've ever wondered why this "defund the police" movement has gained so much traction over the years, look no further than stupid bullshit like this. The diminishing returns are insane. More harm is caused than the good being claimed. Blah blah blah lefty left rant.

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This is actually a bi-partisan issue.

The more libertarian one is (and subsequently less authoritarian) the less we should be relying on force to get society to work. Even a lot of the authoritarians have to admit that ticketing students in already impoverished neighborhoods it's pretty ridiculous and not really helpful. There are way better ways to impose force to get better results than that. This is just lazy and stupid.

Totally arbitrary bullshit

The fines and punishments, which are set by local governments, vary widely. That means the penalty for disorderly conduct violations might be $450 in one town, $50 in another and community service in a third. Towns also have different policies about whether and when they pursue unpaid ticket debt.

The complete lack of consistency shows that none of these punishments have been studied or known to actually work (in fact all studies point to it not working, just like the D.A.R.E program) they are just punishment for punishment sake and a way for people in charge to generate revenue by force while simultaneously feeling superior and completely justified about it. Pretty gross honestly.

Some police departments choose not to ticket students at school; they say it’s not an effective way to change behavior or help young people. Some schools have police officers on campus but direct them to stay out of minor disciplinary matters.

Ya don't say!?!

I find it funny that no one talks about the real issue here. Negative reinforcement is a known losing strategy from people-training to dog-training. All animals react poorly to negative reinforcement, and it is scientifically known that while positive reinforcement tactics are much harder to concoct, they always work exponentially better once the secret sauce is found.

The whole rule-by-fear strategy is already known to be a terrible way to run things in the long-run, and yet it keeps being employed time and time again across the globe within multiple disciplines. Not only that, it is constantly overly-justified and even celebrated by many who experienced the same treatment. It's all a very shit-rolls-downhill scenario, where the people who support these methods of force already know the hazing isn't very effective, but it becomes like a rite of passage. "Oh I had to deal with that bullshit so you should have to as well." That's a very bad look for society as a whole.

At schools where police routinely ticket students, officials argued that some young people need consequences beyond school discipline. They said students returning to school after pandemic closures have shown an increase in troubling behavior that has been difficult to manage.

HAHA!

What?

The problem is authoritarianism.

What's the solution?

Authoritarianism.

Christ.

The beating will continue, until morale improves.

Classic.

Schools aren’t allowed to fine students for misbehaving in Illinois. When legislators passed a broad overhaul of school discipline in 2015, they specifically banned fines as a “disciplinary consequence.” That change was inspired by a Chicago charter school that had been fining students for issues like tardiness and uniform infractions.

But the law, still known to educators as Senate Bill 100, doesn’t apply to police. Some school officials argue they are following the rules as long as police officers write the tickets and municipalities issue the fines.

Literally there is a law against doing it but they find a loophole and act like everything is fine because they found a loophole. Like, honestly how much more full of bullshit can someone be? Pretty wild honestly.

“We’re not the issuer of the ticket,” said Marjorie Greuter, superintendent of East Peoria Community High School District 309. One of the deans there pointed out that the high school also does not make money from the tickets.

But families and advocates for children see little distinction — they just know there’s a financial consequence for misbehavior at school.


That kind of thinking goes against research that has found that involving law enforcement in school incidents is harmful and counterproductive.

Duh?

Again, the issue is misrepresented and the distraction is allowed to run rampant. Punishing people has never been about reforming society and making it a better place; that's just the excuse being used, and too many people focus on that bullshit excuse and try to evaluate it. We already know the recidivism rates are embarrassing and the supposed reform doesn't exist. The problem is being made worse.

It's so obvious that the punishments exist for another reason than their stated purpose (or flat out just due to incompetence or misinformation) but this often goes unstated. Rule of thumb: when money and capitalism and revenue are involved, perhaps the declared politics behind the situation are actually complete bullshit. As if we need to fine the parents of children in order to have a fulling-functioning school. The absurdity of it all is mind blowing.

Carpentersville police issued 649 truancy tickets to students at Dundee-Crown High School between January 2019 and December 2021, the most truancy tickets issued in any district the reporters examined. The fines totaled nearly $50,000.

$50k is relatively a lot and also not a lot at the same time. It's a lot of unnecessary burden to the community but it's also not a lot in the context of how much it costs to pay officers to do their job. There's a lot of variables here and many things to consider. Not really any point to arguing individual points further because going down that political argument rabbit hole is largely fruitless for all parties concerned.

Again, this seems to be a bi-partisan issue.

Children are under attack. That's resonates with the right wing. This is also a defund the police issue which is left wing and a racial/class bias which is another left wing issue. Honestly this whole covid thing has hit the youth pretty fucking hard. At the end of the day while they have the left and right at each-other's throats these things always appear to boil down to overstepping the bounds of authoritarianism. The more people fight against each other and the worse things get, the easier it is for authority to seize power and crack down hard with it. It's all looney toons in my opinion.

I'll be the first to admit that there's a lot of nuanced perspective out there that's been going completely over my head. Been in a bubble for quite some time now, and reading things like this makes me realize how much crazy stuff is going on in the world that I remain blissfully ignorant to.

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Conclusion

Alright well there's still a lot more to say as that article I linked is massive, but I think I'm going to sign off early on this one. Blows my mind that kids could get ticketed for actual money in school, and the people doing it could be so cavalier about it, and act all justified on their high horse as if they're helping. Par for the course I suppose.

At the end of the day it's for reasons like this that I'm so heavily involved in crypto. Crypto is inherently libertarian opt-in governance that can't force anyone to do anything. There are a million to choose from, and if one doesn't suit our needs we can just bounce on over to another system that does. The governance structures of the future are going to whiplash back from this something fierce. A state of almost lawlessness/anarchy will come around sooner or later, and I'm not saying it will be great, but it certainly will be interesting judging from what I'm seeing today. The fishtail is real.

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wonders won’t just end will they? the more reason why decentralization comes into the picture unprovoked.

The more people fight against each other and the worse things get, the easier it is for authority to seize power and crack down hard with it.

Now TV, social media and Netflix make so much sense... for them.

This is crazy to even think of... Poor kids are suffering this harassment! I'm pretty sure they yell back or complain but there isn't anyone to help.

The harsh reality is that there are still a lot of expectations from these kids to be good leaders.

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No the proper reality would be that these kids learn from the experience and go on to become good leaders.

Of course those kids are having it hard after the pandemic.

Most adults are having a hell of a time so why should our teens be any different? They were locked in for two years!

Just a note, I am around teenagers a whole lot cause my daughter is in high school and non of her friends are old enough to drive and I have a minivan...

This crop of kids that are coming up are AMAZING, they are kind, loving, and politely tell dinosaur teachers to fuck off.

I wish Illinois was treating our children better.

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and politely tell dinosaur teachers to fuck off
Reinforcing that kind of disrespect is exactly why these kids are in kiddie court. You are part of the problem not the solution.

No @sunlit7 YOU are part of the problem.

Because you don't even know WHY they are telling the teachers to fuck off.

Yeah I do. It's been going on for quite some time. My youngest son, knock on wood, barely escaped what our public schools has transitioned to in regard to being respectful to their elders. The class room was so out of control his teacher sent him and a few others into other classrooms to escape the distractions being leveled at the teacher. She was a young not old teacher. It's gotten so bad the schools are now patrolled by the cops. I thank my lucky stars they got out in time.

Look at you screaming in my face "WHY", out of control parents raise out of control kids. Self centered selfish and feeling entitled to run roughshod over how you think the world should operate, set the agenda. Well you know there's an old saying and it's goes like this, "what comes around goes around". There was a time people respectfully waited their turn to make change, they didn't intimidate, threaten or assault their way into change. I am sure when you get there that the same would be returned to you in retrospect. Otherwise encouraging kids they can run roughshod over others is only going to increase the violence beyond schools as is often now seen with youths beating the elderly on the streets, throwing them down robbing them or plain out just stabbing them. When you get old enough to reap the fruits of your disrespectful behavior you may just find you don't like living in helpless fear.

You know what's been going on?

Cause you are here.

Oh wait. You aren't.

I doubt you are that far off the radar of what's transpiring everywhere else.

Just seeing the picture, I was like "What the hell?" How come about this and then I read the post and was like "This is wrong". I don't agree with it at all no matter what their "Financial consequences reasons" are 😏

Adults find it hard to pay for those tickets, now the students too? Silly!

But on another thought, I agree with the part that kids have more troublesome behaviour than before the pandemic 😂

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Throwing kids into the legal system is not going to end well. The legal system is messed up already as it is and I don't really think it will make the students avoid it in the future. Just view all the stuff you can see, and it's kind of bs for everything the legal system has because it supports the government's decision.

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They aren't involving kids in the legal system. It's like a junior court system that doesn't even have a judge. They aren't even located in a court house. Most are handled lawyers, more serious offenses have to be signed off by a judge. The final responsibility to pay resides with the parents so no it can't go on a kids credit report, if the parent fails to pay they can get the money from the parents taxes like any other debt.

Also the school administrators determine if a police officer gets involved, so this isn't like situations where either a kid has repeatedly failed intervention by school officials or there's a problem that increasingly becoming common, like kids carrying vape pipes. No different than in the days when you couldn't bring cigarettes to school, friends of mine would ditch them under people's plants and bushes near the school as to not be caught with them.

Here's your problem many times:

“Instead of counseling these children, they are giving them tickets,” said the mother. “When they are handing out citations in this volume, you have to stop and say, ‘What’s going on here?’”

Hum, since most these kids this isn't first time situation and they have been counseled by the school, the parent notified just exactly how is it the school's responsibility to lay that off on? Shouldn't home be where "counseling and guidance" is best determined? Given that if the kid isn't listening to the parent just how much respect do you think they have for the school? The days of a principle and teachers monitoring the halls is a bygone era, just take a look at some videos of kids taking on teachers physically in the classrooms.

We are talking Illinois here also. Just the amount of sexual assaults and rapes in some of these schools is absolutely shocking. Some of the stuff I read I'd fear for my life having to attend some of these schools. You ever read the stories also of kids who are murdered by gangs on their way to and from school? You think the school made these kids that way?....you'd better think again.

Maybe this is the best thing for some of these kids. A trip through kiddie court to get idea of where they are headed if they don't adjust their behavior. I know people's heads would explode but in seriously horrendous schools they should put a jail cell somewhere. Maybe telling kids to go sit inside a jail cell for awhile voluntarily to get a feel for what it's like to find yourself living in one might be a good experience for a deterrent.

One of the most memorable heart breaks I have witnessed was sitting in a prison visiting my brother and across the hall in another area there was the intake area. Most the visiting room and intake room had large windows across from each other. The faces of those kids, that's exactly what young 17, 18, 19 year old's are, I can't even begin to describe the looks, if any where coming in there for murder they were looking at exactly what the rest of their lives were going to look like. Gates, cider blocks and windows.
One day, a long time ago that was my brother I was looking at, he's been in for thirty five years. He was a product of his upbringing not a product of having been given a ticket for discipline by forces that shouldn't have been the ones doing the disciplining or teaching children the boundaries of appropriate behavior. If parents were doing their jobs, if parents were still allowed to spank a kid or give them a good slap up alongside their heads when they needed it instead of calling the cops and having the parent arrested some of these extremely out of control kids might experience some real meaning behind the words attitude adjustment. That temporary moment of lost of pride, hurt feelings or injured ego is way better than a lifetime behind bars.

Hey! Those who are really poor don't pay any income tax! The governments have to have some avenue to get their money...and as per usual force and domination is the only way they know at the foundation. Sarcasm alert.

I am a little jaded as a long time die hard libertarian, but this is just what you get when we as a society abdicate all of our rights to the government (including the right to raise your kid as you see fit).

So many people would prefer the government or teacher or pastor or whoever do this job. Then they get pissed and are shocked when things like this happen. Unfortunatley, not enough of us are pissed yet (including myself in this). Ultimately we stay pissed at others (or the government even) when we should be pissed at ourselves for letting it get this far out of hand. We should embrace an be willing to do these things ourselves instead of abdicating them to others. We are responsible for this state of things. Sadly.

In my mind very few things in this life justify violence, including the raising and training of children. Unfortunately that is the way of things and is slow in changing.

On the police. On a global scale, they don't work for you. Many individual ones do, but as an entity in general, they work for the one who pays them (city, state, nation) or they get fired. Interests are misaligned.

I have been libertarian long enough to know that utopia from anarchy is a pipe dream, but I will never give up on the idea that the government that governs best is the government that governs least. Unfortunately government is force and to reduce their power requires a force of will that goes against human nature, so I don't know.

One day soon the shift towards less government will make a comeback, but I fear it will be messy, with some force from the "good side" involved. I wish it werent so. but there it is.

I have been on a rant session lately because I feel that we as a society are being duped by our governments (which is ourselves really) and something must give.

Sigh. I'll shut up :-0

Sorry to come crap on your thread. More on topic. Yeah. This crap sucks, and is something I would never imagined I would see in my lifetime. Now I have.

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