I hate censorship: here's how we should do censorship on Hive

in #v4vapp2 years ago

BrianofLondon banned on Twitter

Rule 1: There should be no censorship on Hive.
Rule 2: Here's how we should allow censorship on Hive.
Rule 3: The capacity to deal with paradox is a defining feature of Humanity.

Censorship is Content Moderation

I'm listening to a new podcast called "Moderated Content" featuring evelyn douek Assistant Professor at Stanford Law talking to Daphne Keller. They're talking about the new Texas Law which tries to protect free speech on large platforms. I got there from Casey Newton's substack which is also where this high level explanation of the Texas HB20 Law comes from:

I’ve written a few times here about HB20, which allows the state’s attorney general and average citizens to sue platforms with more than 50 million users any time they believe the platform removed a post due to the viewpoint it expresses. In May, the US Supreme Court temporarily blocked the law from taking effect while it was appealed. But just over a week ago, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a lower court’s ruling and allowed the law to take effect. The case is now almost certainly headed for the Supreme Court.

I read and listen to content about these subjects from people I vehemently disagree with. I do this so you probably don't have to.

But one idea dropped out which I think we could bring to Hive in a strange way.

Let's do censorship on Hive

Also from Casey's Substack quoting Keller on the podcast:

On the show, Keller wonders whether platforms might be able to get around the most vexing parts of the Texas law by allowing users to opt in to content moderation: showing them all the abuse and hate speech and everything else by default, but letting them click a button that restores the community guidelines and the regular platform experience.

“The middle ground I'm most interested in … is to flood Texas with garbage by default, but give users an opt out to go back to the moderated experience,” Keller said. “And there's some language in the statute that kind of, sort of, arguably makes that okay. And it sort of illustrates the problem with the Texas law by flooding everyone with garbage by default, while avoiding a bunch of the bad consequences of actually flooding everybody with garbage permanently.”

Audio clip of that on Fountain

Here's my idea for Hive: Opt In Censorship

We provide a tool or tools at the base protocol level for anyone to set themselves up as a "Content Moderator" or "Trust and Safety" authority on Hive. Or they can pick which ever euphemism for Censor they feel comfortable with (I guess it's like choosing your own pronouns).

Hive then allows any one of us to SUBSCRIBE to and have our view of Hive filtered by any or all of these authorities on what we should or shouldn't see.

What does this fix

Right now Hive is largely invisible. Whether this is through malicious suppression or our lack of millions of dollars of marketing budget or some combination of both, it is a fact.

If Hive ever grew to be large enough or gained notoriety, at some point regulators, censors and other ne'er-do-wells would crawl out of the woodwork all over the world and DEMAND that "Hive" install a trust and safety policy or some such. Most of Hive's front ends do actually have some policies in place over absolutely illegal content but we don't have active censorship.

Yes, I know about the back and forth of downvote wars, and whilst deciding who gets REWARDED for content is still an issue, these don't per-se make it impossible to view downvoted content.

Hive's collective answer to anyone coming and demanding we install content moderation will be: do it yourself.

You be the censor you want Hive to have

The censor will need an account, to invest time, talent and treasure in the required HP to make the account have some level of authority and then start policing Hive for content the censor doesn't want others to see.

The censor will have access to the full back end database of Hive, because we all do. The censor can build their own filter systems and or whatever AI or machine learning (or skip logic in COBOL) they wish. This shouldn't be part of Hive's core.

The censor will also need to convince Hive's users, one by one, they should opt in to a world in which that censor controls their view of Hive.

This sounds ridiculous, who would use this?

Honestly, this is more of a thought experiment than a call to the core devs to stop doing useful stuff and build this. But I want it to be regarded as possible. If in some far off future we are attacked in this way, this should be our answer: heck if a regulator wants this future so badly, they can contribute to the DHF or pay someone directly to modify the core code and put in the pull requests.

If you want to censor Hive: here are the tools; do it yourself and let each member of the community vote whether to accept your censorship or not.


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If this can really be implemented, it will help the hive platform I believe

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Totally agreed!
That will make hive better

Thanks for sharing and I believe is a step for progress.

That kind of "censorship" feature you're talking about already exists on Hive. That's the purpose of blacklists.

I'm vaguely aware of blacklists (which we probably need to rename as denylists). Do they allow filtering at the individual item level or by accounts?

Blacklists filter accounts (afaik), but within communities, there is the possibility of moderation, both at the post level and at the author level. Tribes have muting too (for tags or accounts).

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I mean the tribe tokens aren’t even real cryptos are they? It’s fully centralized by whoever created them right?

Yes, their distribution is parametrizable by their creator, so their creator has A LOT of power over what happens to the token, even if he/she doesn't take any tokens for him/her self.

Yea I always looked at these as more for fun projects. I think it’s crazy anyone considers them in same league as Hive or a decentralized chain.

Account level only

Blacklist works now like nuke, most HE front ends to use it to block users 100%.

And this makes it centralized. I see a lot of people for questionable reasons to end on the blacklist.

Mostly under 10k hive accounts, remember Bernie sanders was never on a blacklist, lol.

We need a better way.

yup. And the people that come on blacklists are in some cases really random.

Bots scam = 100% support. But i have seen a lot of other cases.

A general Blacklist makes Hive centralized IMO, because most front ends use it.

I hope there will be a better way at some point because it is IMO highly politically motivated now.

You aren’t wrong at all!

I'm not calling for a general blocklist.

I'm calling for a function that allows ANYONE to create and maintain a blocklist at both the account and content level (i.e. just block a single post but leave a user's account as still viewable).

The twist is that front ends allow you to choose which (or no) blocklists you subscribe too.

The reputation and policies of the maintainer of the blocklist will be public and be the key to how many people are happy to have their view of Hive, pre-filtered.

User level Blocklist = awesome like nodes.

Front end level blocklist ( like we have today) = bad.

Front ends could maintain their own Blacklists and allow user to switch would be awesome. My experience with Blacklist and asking the people that maintain it is more like, we decide, no matter what.

Would be an awesome change and i know it would be easily funded in DAO, because so many people are unhappy with the current thing.

I was about to mention blacklists, but @arcange was faster on this one. Another point to raise is possibly that of communities, that actually have moderation options (and you can opt in by joining the community). Of course, this is limited as long as we don't want to restrict ourselves to a single community tag.

Sounds like an interesting idea, but it would still not stop whales abusing their HP to maliciously downvote to oblivion content that does not hold to their point of view. Quite frankly, from this point of view, Hive is broken.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

It isn't broken, no system is perfect. I agree the whales can be a baggage, but is there any system where you don't have abuse isn't existent?

Posted using LeoFinance Mobile

I don’t think anyone is claiming there’s a better platform where this doesn’t happen. But it’s a huge problem and we shouldn’t ignore it. We should try to make it better.

I've been on this network since just a few months after it started as Steemit, and then transitioned to Hive. So I've seen a great deal.

No system is perfect, because no human is perfect, but it should not stop us from striving to build better things.

It is broken because previous hardforks which were meant to eliminate or reduce abuse, failed, because the fixes often opened new avenues of abuse. It's game theory.

Downvoting isn't censorship. The downvoted post remains visible and untouched. It's still a sanction against content which violates community/tribal guidelines, or it's a way to preserve the value of the token. But the post itself is left visible for all to see.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Things that don’t violate anything are downvoted and crushed often. The users rating goes to below zero if they keep posting and is no different then being invisible. It’s a huge problem and I’ve seen a number of people leave over it. It’s a huge problem not a small one. Especially given the gang ups of big whales who are well known being most guiltily of it.

All true. I won't say that it doesn't happen even at this late date, but I know it was a more common event before.

Will it ever stop? I don't know. Is there a way to sanction the abuse of the downvote? I don't know.

It's bad enough when downvoting is done exactly as intended; none of us need to be on the short end of downvoting as an act of maliciousness.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

It certainly has same effect. You must be aware it’s abused and not just used on “ content that violates community standards”

It’s a big problem indeed! It is censorship also! It’s literally no different in real life effect. You are correct.technically yes it’s different but in real effect it’s not.

I agree that downvoting gets abused. I don't deny that. There have been downvoting wars and other mischief taking place going back to the SteemIt days. Downvoting is also one of the most misunderstood concepts regarding blogging on Hive.

I was just a couple of noting one of the intended purposes of downvoting where it can be justified. Downvote abuse will happen regardless.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

It's still a sanction against content which violates community/tribal guidelines
Sorry, most of the big downvoting I see is because personal opinion, not any failure to follow community guidelines.

You don't have to work hard to earn a stake on the network to have big voting power. You can purchase it.

But the greatest abuse I see is of delegated voting power.

While content may be still visible, abusive voting power limits the ability of others to grow their own voting power on the network. So collective few continue to increase their voting power.

What do you new users on the network see the most of? The trending posts. So of course downvoted content never makes it to the fore. So you can't say there is no censorship. Ensuring few eyes get to see the content is censorship. There's little chance of discovery or follower growth.

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Interesting concept. I dont know if I would ever use it but would be curious to see it in place

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

This really is a great idea that would be really much appreciated here on Hive if implemented and thanks for sharing.

Interesting thought experiment

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

This is PERFECT!!!

Blurt already has something similar I think.But it's kind of a front end specific thing. Blurt has no downvotes. Front ends censor abusers. If you don't like it you can make your own front end.

Your idea is even better! IF we allow users to make their own moderated lists it'be awesome!

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Blurt? No they don’t. It’s one centralized person. No comparison respectfully.

It's more than 1 person. There are many witnesses. It's less decentralized than Hive. Blurt is also easier to attack. there's no Dapps beyond blogging. But it's not just 1 person project.

I meant it was started by one person and he has extra power over black lists or coal lists I’ve been told. Megadrive or something. There’s major drama about it :(

COAL list isn't censorship. It's front ends working to prevent abuse. There's no downvotes on Blurt. Anyone can post anything. Front end can decide to exclude users. If you don't like it you can start your own front end.

There's No Centralized Censorship On Blockchain Level

It's just front end stuff. Also there's more than 1 person. https://blurtwallet.com/~witnesses It's not as decentralized as Hive. But there's many people working on Blurt. It's 1000X better than Steem! That's for sure !PIZZA

I enjoyed this article because it’s important to be critical of the things you care for sometimes to get an honest appraisal of their strengths and weaknesses, so you can make them better.
And while we are not all in a position to build code, we are as users very good judges of the effectiveness of the current build and how it serves the needs of it’s desired audience.

Posted using LeoFinance Mobile

Whether it is done by political governments, private agents acting as state actors, or even purely private platforms, it looks to me as if this is the greatest problem surrounding censorship: It takes place against our will.

In the case of self-censorship, is it because we decided to hold back and be more polite, or is it because we were compelled to censor ourselves? If the former, that was our call. If the latter, that is just as bad as state-imposed censorship.

Blockchain stores all data committed to it. Block explorers such as Hiveblocks will display the raw data used for some questionable content.

As for what gets displayed to us as fully-rendered content-- via Markdown and HTML-- tribes and communities can enforce that through their respective front-ends. Rules are posted, and if we don't like them we can walk away and find a tribe or community more to out liking.

In some cases, content remains available to be viewed, but we have to go out of our way to view it. This is true for muted posts. Everyone presents, I decide.

If moderation has to take place, it should be done at the lowest level possible. This means we moderate ourselves. No federal/national authorities, no state/provincial authorities, no city/town/village authorities. We do it ourselves on our platforms. In the end, isn't that what we want? Self-governance?

In the event we are warned about things such as misinformation or disinformation, top-level governments are no more qualified to determine what qualifies than any of us here. So everyone presents their points and from there each of us decides what to believe.

As some old guy said when I was a teenager long ago, "Trust, but verify." These days, we're being told "Trust us, or else...."

Had Big Tech's Web2 platforms handled censorship this way, social media would be a radically different environment today.

The take away for me is that whatever we do, we need the option to participate or not. Hive does this, and Web2 doesn't.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Wao! This would be a great one if adopted. And from what you said now, it would be a better chance for more content creators and I think it's a great idea but I guess anyone can try it out right?

An awesome idea to pick trusting moderators to rate content instead of negative voting out of the blue without any explanation or reason to do so. And those moderators should be at any point downvoted or lose their role in order to keep the curation and censorship healthy. I approve of this idea! ;)))

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

That's an interesting twist. In some jurisdictions, the person who loses the lawsuit is required to pay expenses for both parties.

In this concept, the lawmakers are required to pay the cost of their legislation. Perhaps this will be a benefit of decentralization.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

This is what we face in Australia suing Google and Facebook. It is why we've applied for a special ruling that for exceptional cases, where there is a broad public interest in the case and it's a "reasonable issue for trial", we can get a ruling making us pay only our own legal costs and Google and Facebook are unable to make us pay theirs even if we eventually lose.

PIZZA!

PIZZA Holders sent $PIZZA tips in this post's comments:
@d-zero(1/5) tipped @waveshaper (x1)

Learn more at https://hive.pizza.

Personally I think that we need a way to fight back against abusive people accounts and our reputation system actually really helps that.

There is an individual harassing people on the blockchain and they can be downvoted until they are muted as well as communities banding together can mute that account unilaterally with their front ends resulting in an individual self-censoring themselves into Oblivion.

Personally there should absolutely be a community wide movement to support small accounts under attack and abuse.

However Justice really cannot be blind and the totality of the entire circumstances need to be looked into. If a small account is being a proxy and abusing others Maybe the situation needs to be clarified and there is no party in the right.

However having our system here and it continuing to evolve positively I have great faith that we can do this if we invest in our community and supporting real human beings as well as their work here on the blockchain regardless of someone's opinions or reactions.

We've already had one free speech War it really would be bad for us to repeat that mistake.

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It would be something like: "If you want to censor the Hive ecosystem do it yourself", perhaps thinking that somehow the censor would desist from doing this job, but if there is something that excites the central powers is that, to watch what others do and prohibit their work to be exposed to the world.

On the other hand, here in this Hive world censorship is already a daily thing, many of us have been blacklisted or disfavored by clans or whales just because they don't agree with our publications or we refuse to honor these clans, it happens a lot in the Spanish communities.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

@theycallmedan and @starkerz this is also the core of what we need on SPK Network to serve as DIY moderation for communities.

If you don't think what @themarkymark has done to me by use of downvotes doesn't accomplish the same thing as censorship.

Well I'd question your ability of basic reasoning lol

So hive is not only censored social media. It's social media I gotta for with the power up investing

Look at our model at bitcoinmyk.com

That's model that will catch on and makes logical sense.

Hive is not suppressed
People will always use good products

It's not well designed so most will flat out reject it

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Dear, @brianoflondon

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If you havent tried playing CryptoBrewMaster you can give it a shot. Our @hivefest presentation available here on the YouTube with a pitchdeck of what we building in general

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Thank you!

I think a lot of people still don't get what is meant when we say 'Hive is censorship-resistant'.

Only the Hive blockchain is censorship resistant.

You have the keys to your account and you can always publish to the blockchain using it.

But front-ends are nothing more than businesses that can choose to display the blockchain's content THEIR WAY.

That's right, front-ends can 'censor' you on THEIR front-end.

Don't like it?

Well you can always view content on one of the many alternative... or even build/host your own!

The other aspect to censorship-resistance on Hive that people confuse, is rewards.

If you have your rewards removed via downvotes, you are NOT being censored.

You are still able to publish to your account and it is simply centralised front-ends (THEIR choice) choosing to hide downvoted content using their own metric.

You are actually free to build a front-end that displays only downvoted content if you want haha - Wouldn't that be something!

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

You are actually free to build a front-end that displays only downvoted content if you want haha - Wouldn't that be something!

That would be funny. I'd love to see a Hive front end that publishes the spammy comments or reorganizes the silliness that pervades when people have a platform to say whatever they want in a way that lets us all see how really silly it is to just say whatever you want.

There are people who make legit non silly non spam content who are downvoted also. At least I saw it in 2021 and this year a few cases. I saw it with content critiquing and criticizing the covid vaccine for example in 2021/2022. Yes they can make there own front end but come on it’s same effect as censorship. If they will eventually appear with a zero rating and almost invisible I just don’t see a big difference besides a technical one but not a actual real effect one.

I know there are click wars. I've seen it on Steemit and I'm sure I'll eventually see it on Hive. If a bunch of people don't like what you say, they can all gang up on you and downvote you. Same thing in real life. If a bunch of people don't like what you say and what you stand for, they won't associate with you. That's called freedom.

Ur 100% right, they stake it and do have the freedom. But it’s not a bunch of people in a “ClickWar, it’s one. It’s one huge Whale in the cases I’m talking about. It has hurt our platform a lot. Again ur technical wise 100% right. Not arguing that but it has had a real world negative effect here. I for one and many others don’t stake close to what we used to because of this. It’s not a code problem but the negative effects are still true and it’s probably not going to change unless we break a market cap of a few billion. I just think the level of damage is more then those only looking at code realize. We can grow our way outta it, Id we do that’s only way I see. Growing aka less centralized control of stakes.

I don't know the specific situation you're talking about. I do know one whale can do damage to a system. Maybe that individual is on a sabotage mission. Maybe it's someone who doesn't want Hive to succeed, for whatever reason. The answer is to recruit more people so that decentralization grows. The more decentralized the network, the less likely any one individual can destroy it.

Definitely not bashing Hive here I love this place , it’s just a bummer to see a couple people I followed closely be hit by monster downvotes repeatedly for talking about a topic someone wanted silenced (critical of Vaccines and other so called no go topics during the last couple years) silenced. I’m sure 98% of downvoting is legit spam and what not but it’s just a shame to have a couple whales use there power this way. The fix it to grow and as we do that power will be spread out indeed. I agree 💯

Some people downvote stuff they don't agree with, which I think is terrible. If someone writes an awesome essay, even if I disagree with it strongly, I'll either upvote it just not interact with it out of respect for the skill in presenting the argument or information.

It would be funny for 5 minutes, but it would be such a shitshow.

Not to mention the legal problems would no doubt arise for the owner/host when socially acceptable content is anti-filtered.

I'd like to see what would happen, but I certainly don't want to be the one responsible haha.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Yeah, that's for sure. I would not want to be responsible, and I probably wouldn't read any of it for more than five minutes, as you said.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

and if all front ends use the same Blacklist, the result is web2.

I think it is very important to point out there are two parts to what I'm proposing.

  • Making the lists.
  • Using the lists.

I want anyone to be able to make a list and anyone to be able to use anyone else's list. Lists should be both at content level and account level.

The point here is that front ends can choose a list or no list but the main purpose is that EACH user individually can choose to "follow" a block list.

It's kind of like curation in reverse.

The point here is that the tool would then exist for content moderation, but only people who WANT more content moderation will run the system and use it.

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Sounds like a good idea. I mean as long as it’s by choice by the user that’s great. That is not censorship irs just urself seeing the content you decide. I just don’t like the downvoting effecting others view of accounts if by a whale and regularly targeted. This is a much better system and uses can always update and check the status to make sure it’s working the way they want.

Ended up leaving a comment off this topic but Hive is a lot more centralized then I ever realized. Obviously I mean in real world effect not the code. Not so much a comment on this post but it’s fresh on mind. I was shown by a user how they were mass downvoted on old account on anti vaccine posts and the whale kept doing it to them every post until there rep was below 25 and there stuff was practically invisible. I consider this censorship as it’s no different in real effect although technically I get it’s not same. If they keep posting and this one 🐳 auto downvotes everything there rep will just keep taking sub zero and never be clicked on. It’s a real bummer and unfortunate there isn’t more of a rally call to support when this happens. I have seen a decline in interest into Hive by many. It’s unfortunate but I question it’s future honestly. Again not a code problem but it just won’t work being this small Market cap. I think growing would indeed help this problem but I see more people dumping that were here for years from steemit days then buying. Maybe I’m just bummed to see some long timers go and bias 🤷🏼‍♂️.

But it's not at all - This is Web3 working as intended.

You can still always publish content to the blockchain using your account.

And you can simply find another front-end that displays said content in your preferred format.

If you really can't find one to display the content your way, you can literally build/host a front-end that does.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Yes but if you are continually downvoted by a whale ur rep goes lower and lower and it’s same effect as censorship. I love Hive but it isn’t as censorship resistant as I once thought.

is like using Twitter APY, there you can find deleted accounts and content too.

Only if users can decide which blacklist they want to use as a standard release real web3 experience.

And to go back to the point 1, what is the point of having a lot of hivepower if some randoms with access to the blacklist can decide to block content on 90% of front ends.

For example most HE front ends use the same blacklist ( same as Hiveblog and other big).

Also, there is no public access to it.

What front-ends choose to display is completely up to them as private businesses.

If they use this blacklist, then that's their call - Again, you're free to use another or host your own that doesn't.

As for the removal of rewards that comes with downvoting by those with large stake, that is a whole other issue.

But being downvoted in itself is NOT censorship.

I'm repeating myself a bit I know, but it's important to make clear that nobody, no matter how much stake they have, has the power to censor you at the blockchain level.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

yes, but that's not the point.

If all front ends use the same blacklist ( what it is now) it makes no difference to banning in web2. With the difference of collectible blocking, think about Facebook blocking you and you can't access Twitter anymore. Or your mail account.

If you don't believe me look at what the blacklist does, then come back and leave a comment. I'm sure you will hate it too.

My point is, 2-3 people decide for close to all front ends what will be displayed or not. Lol that's worse than any web2 site.

My point is, 2-3 people decide for close to all front ends what will be displayed or not. Lol that's worse than any web2 site.

Close to all...

I do see what you're saying and agree that if 99% of the front-ends available to display Hive blockchain content use the same censorship rules, then it's not great.

But:

  • Users on any list can still publish content to the blockchain.
  • Front-ends are not FORCED to use it when displaying content.
  • Anyone is free to build a front-end that uses a different censorship metric

Therefore Hive is censorship-resistant.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Front-ends are not FORCED to use it when displaying content

But they do. Because they are lazy.

Anyone is free to build a front-end that uses a different censorship metric

If one-click installs like a wordpress front end, I would agree. But for now, I don't think it's accessible to everyone.

Therefore Hive is censorship-resistant.

Yes, but we can do better! :)

Also, I want to see information are neutral handles to the point of displaying the content. After this, the users can decide.

Before it is by definition censorship. Not on Chain level, but you get the point.

Something like Blacklisting users for all front ends should only happen for scams and other really shady shit.

Not if someone believes the earth is flat, lol :D

Bottom line is the market will decide. If Hive doesn’t grow and people don’t like it something else will. Maybe a fork maybe not. It’s just frustrating seeing people who discuss things get downvoted to zero just for difference of opinions and by a so called leader here. A lot more people have stopped staking Hive then I think many realize. I love this place but I must admit I thought there was more respect for different opinions then there is. Boy did 2020/2021 show me I was wrong.