HBD.Funder Spam Comments Earned 1,439,172 Hive in 2021 (and they only started on March 21st)

scottermonkey 3 years ago

Wow great article! I see here your desire for fairness and I want the same!

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Thanks brother!

Might as well go out with a bang, rather than a wimper, eh?

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chefbgob 3 years ago

Imma start doing that tactic.. it's my business plan for 2022

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kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Haha!

Just gotta start off by getting yourself 5-10 million Hive to stake, then it's all gravy from there 😎

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chefbgob 3 years ago

3.80 VYB

dynamicrypto 3 years ago

Let's see if I get in trouble for this...

Screenshot (755).png

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Actually, tim probably isn't getting any of that; he doesn't seem to be one of the big voters on the comments.

It beneficiaries all the author rewards to @hbdstabilizer (back to the DHF), it's the curation rewards that are going directly to people from these comments.

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dynamicrypto 3 years ago

gotcha, i tagged him cause he has his name on the project...

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therealflaws 3 years ago

This is really stupid. You are completely free to create a proposal in DHF without the need to criticize something that is efficient. As BlockTrades said, if you have Hive Power, you are free to vote HBD.Funder comments and no one will judge you. You ignore the fact that they have a large amount of staked Hive and would have to wait about 3 months until they can withdraw it.

If you are not going to contribute anything, better avoid criticizing man.

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

If you are not going to contribute anything, better avoid criticizing man.

I literally contributed possible solutions here in the comments, and I'm not really "criticizing" so much as making public knowledge a bunch of data that is available on the chain, but most don't know where to look.

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therealflaws 3 years ago

and I'm not really "criticizing"

And resalting the words "Spam comments" in 90% of the post. Yeah, sure.

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kennyskitchen 3 years ago

And resalting the words "Spam comments" in 90% of the post. Yeah, sure.

Put this in literally any other context than top witnesses, and everyone would obviously be calling them spam comments. 10x per day, the exact same text.

The use of euphemisms to blur the truth is not something I'm a fan of.

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therealflaws 3 years ago

10x per day, the exact same text.

And why are you ignoring the usefulness of these comments and only focusing your content on the curation rewards generated by these comments? How about also mentioning the relevance these comments have on the chain?

You are sharing information at your convenience. A much healthier thing to do would have been to talk about everything in general and not just highlight the supposed bad aspect of those "Spam comments".

Of course you are criticizing.

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kennyskitchen 3 years ago

And why are you ignoring the usefulness of these comments and only focusing your content on the curation rewards generated by these comments? How about also mentioning the relevance these comments have on the chain?

What relevance do these comments have? None. It's a single sentence.

You are sharing information at your convenience.

I'm sharing information that's hidden from most people, because they don't know where to look. I had no idea this was even happening until a couple weeks ago.

A much healthier thing to do would have been to talk about everything in general and not just highlight the supposed bad aspect of those "Spam comments".

I would recommend going back through my last handful of posts. I've pretty given up hope on this place, and am using my high reputation to shed light on some of the Hive Cabal's goings on, since they can't just zero out my rep like they usually do when someone calls them out.

What's the point of having a platform, if not to use it to shine light?

This is just the most recent piece, specifically going into detail on the rewards going to these comments, after I and a friend spent many hours pulling this data from the blockchain.

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https://peakd.com/hbd/@smooth/hbd-stabilizer-continuation-and-increased-funding

therealflaws 3 years ago

What relevance do these comments have?

You know what? I'm done.

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jaki01 3 years ago

You ignore the fact that they have a large amount of staked Hive and would have to wait about 3 months until they can withdraw it.

Where a huge amount of this stake comes from early mining, the use of bid bots, and then automated curation sniping ...

therealflaws 3 years ago

And so what?

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jaki01 3 years ago

Yes, "and so what" is the problem if the 'poor' whale oligarchs of this platform, who often even didn't invest own money, have to wait a few days for their large staked amounts of HIVE?

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therealflaws 3 years ago

In all cryptos there are people who got stake that may seem unfair, but they were there at the right times. I'm sure that if you had gotten stake that way too, you wouldn't see it as a problem.

I think we're lucky that instead of just abandoning the project and walking away with the free money, they decided to at least support projects that in some way or another contribute to something within the chain, don't you think?

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jaki01 3 years ago

I'm sure that if you had gotten stake that way too, you wouldn't see it as a problem.

Maybe I would be happy about that stake but of course also would still be able at the same time to recognize the problem of centralization and control of only a few over the big majority of users. I am here since 2016. I was here when bid bots took control and I always criticized it, as well as automated curation sniping, from the beginning.

Quite some time ago I withdrew the biggest part of my stake. I don't criticize HIVE because I would be jealous in any way. I own bitcoins, altcoins, and I am in the top 10 richlist of Splinterlands concerning collection power.
The only reason why I still care at all is that I liked the fantastic idea of a censorship free, blockchain based social media site, where in addition authors get rewarded for quality content by real curators who manually check, read, evaluate and upvote content, and HIVE is indeed very advanced from a technological point of view.
However, I am deeply disappointed from what I see and observe here whenever I log in. And that's why I support users like @kennyskitchen who still make the effort to point at the weak points of this social network again and again, even if that means to accept flags from the oligarchs.

I think we're lucky that instead of just abandoning the project and walking away with the free money, they decided to at least support projects that in some way or another contribute to something within the chain, don't you think?

Of course you are free to think like that, but from my point of view I cannot agree. If they had walked away with their money, at least HIVE would be distributed more evenly now, and maybe we would have a rather decentralized social network.
For example the distribution of SPS and DEC in Splinterlands is far better than the distribution of HIVE with many different big stake holders and organic growth.
Even without the old HIVE devs there would always come new ones as long as the community is healthy, friendly, thriving.
I really respect people like @theycallmedan who bought their stake and were never involved in stupid flag wars. Also @aggroed and @yabapmatt just peacefully develop their stuff. These somewhat newer users who don't belong to the 'old crew' are my only hope for a better future of HIVE.
I know that for example on Solana and the Cardano blockchain social media projects are prepared, too. If HIVE isn't able to solve its problems I will happily join better options as soon as available, even if I will always remember the old times where at first STEEM (the SteemFests ...) and then HIVE meant a lot to me.

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urun 3 years ago

Solana and the Cardano

did you think they will work better? I remember voice promises :D Turns out into a NFt marketplace or something else.

I think social media is extremely complex. But mainly because people from WEB2 expect all people are equal ( even if not true, Influencer guidelines, financial interests).

Equality is very important. Otherwise, people will feel "it's unfair" and a shitstorm starts.

IMO Hive as a reward token doesn't work. It should be an investor token.

rewards should be always community tokens.

I remember the promise "tokenized the web". Today I read "put everything on L2". It's technically a good idea. L2 is less safu.

But for that, we don't need hive´s backbone technology. A smart contract platform/Blockchain with IPFS and some centralized storage could do the same.

That's why I would love to see all critical things on L1. Special I have in mind hardware becomes better and storage cheaper.

jaki01 3 years ago

did you think they will work better?

Well, the 'products' are not yet produced.
I hope the might do better, but I don't know it.
Solana will get pretty much financial support.
The Cardano founder had a rather interesting conversation with Ben Goertzel from SingularityNET.

IMO Hive as a reward token doesn't work. It should be an investor token.

My idea is that there could be two different pools. People who consider themselves as investors could put their HIVE into the 'investor pool' where they get interests for their investment (call it "staking"). My idea is that who decides to go for the investment pool shouldn't be able at the same time to vote on posts. Then they wouldn't have the pressure to earn curation reward by doing automated 'curation'.
Users who consider themselves as authors and/or real manual curators wouldn't get interest on their money in their pool but could earn curation rewards from voting for good content manually (only manually!). Of course a whale who is really interested in content could decide to put his HIVE in the "author/curator" pool, instead to choose the pure investor pool.

Concerning the tokenized web I wonder about two things:

It is already very complicated for 'non-crypto' people to handle a platform based on one single coin/token like HIVE. I fear it could be way too complex to juggle with many different token.
I wonder if people see enough value in layer 2 token if already layer 1 token is struggling. Yes, this 'value question' always lets me doubt.

But well ... lets wait and see how things develop.

therealflaws 3 years ago

Of course you are free to think like that, but from my point of view I cannot agree. If they had walked away with their money, at least HIVE would be distributed more evenly now, and maybe we would have a rather decentralized social network.

That's a pretty fair point.

I will not discuss this any further with you. You are a user I respect quite a bit because you supported me before with projects I did.

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jaki01 3 years ago

Lol, it's not forbidden to discuss and exchange opinions with respected users.
Anyway, I wish you a nice day! :)

notconvinced 3 years ago

You ignore the fact that they have a large amount of staked Hive and would have to wait about 3 months until they can withdraw it.

Not true, they can begin withdrawing after 7 days and each 7 days thereafter for 13 or more weeks.

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therealflaws 3 years ago

Not true, they can begin withdrawing after 7 days and each 7 days thereafter for 13 or more weeks.

13 weeks - 3 months ...

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notconvinced 3 years ago

You do realize that 1/13 of the stake becomes liquid after 7 days, correct? And just like my comment above clearly states, another 1/13 becomes liquid each 7 days until 13 weeks is reached OR the user cancels the power down.

It's common for users, especially those with higher stakes to keep their stake in a power down to live off from weekly, just like receiving a weekly paycheck from a job...

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therealflaws 3 years ago

You do realize that 1/13 of the stake becomes liquid after 7 days, correct? And just like my comment above clearly states, another 1/13 becomes liquid each 7 days until 13 weeks is reached OR the user cancels the power down.

All the stake is withdrawn after 3 months. From an investor's point of view, the price of the Hive could skyrocket (or maybe dump asf) in that amount of time. And the worst part of the case is that each week he will receive only one-thirteenth of the entire stake he is taking out.

Are you sure you know how an investment works? 3 months is a lot of time for an investor to just withdraw his money.

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notconvinced 3 years ago

Investments work in many different ways, depending on the investment. The fact is... the whole stake is NOT locked for 13 weeks. Do you understand this? Or, are you going to play semantics until you come out the winner?

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therealflaws 3 years ago

Do you understand this?

Hahaha, this is very funny.

Or, are you going to play semantics until you come out the winner?

Wdym? I don't need to win.

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bearbear613 3 years ago

spam this

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manniman 3 years ago

Holy Smokes, that's A LOT.

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psychopumpkin 3 years ago

Wow...Wish i could do that lol

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notconvinced 3 years ago

If downvotes aren't about earnings, why are there only enough downvotes to zero it out? This is consistently the tactic, so imo it is about earnings on the dv side and to affect its placement in the feeds, which is 100% an attempt to shadow ban content.

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10 votes

smooth 3 years ago

and the hbdstabilizer project only applies downward pressure

This is completely and utterly wrong.

By design, the stabilizer applies pressure in both directions, but, in practice, it is actually the reward payouts (and people selling them to cash out) that apply constant downward pressure. The stabilizer and other third party HBD converters have to constantly work to apply upward pressure to offset it and keep HBD at $1.

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notconvinced 3 years ago

Well, once again the will of one cancels out the will of 434 users. Let that sink in...

jaki01 3 years ago

NOT true: 441! :)

notconvinced 3 years ago

I stand corrected 😂. It would be more too if it wasn't for the rewards being set to burn and the fear of retribution. I just had a triggered downvote myself from meesterboom on my highest value vote on another post...

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meesterboom 3 years ago

You just had it??

You might lie but the blockchain doesn't ;0D

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notconvinced 3 years ago

Lol, I just noticed it, but it doesn't matter. May I ask why the downvote and the drama here?

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meesterboom 3 years ago

No drama here. At least not from me :O) I'm not even triggered.

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leprechaun 3 years ago

They may take your Hive rewards, but they cannot take your POB.

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higherlow 3 years ago

while seemingly innocuous, the like button, heart button, thumbs up whatever you call it has done a tremendous amount of damage to society. it seems to have reared its ugly head here on HIVE.

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kennyskitchen 3 years ago

That's interesting - I hadn't even really thought of all the sick psychological manipulation that went into the creation & propagation of the "like" button... never mind when you start to add actual monetization to those "likes"... and then we get the realm of dis-likes...

abh12345 3 years ago

A better title would be: The DHF gained 1,439,172 Hive for future marketing and development work in 2021

Give it a rest Kenny, 9 months ago I could see the concerns but the proof is in the pudding, this project is actually working - HBD stabilization, more funds available, HIVE price dominating STEEM.

1.18 VYB

meesterboom 3 years ago

Agreed, it is obvious to all that it is working but when you have an axe to grind, facts don't seem to get in the way of the grinding

ecoinstant 3 years ago

I have a proposal written for dhf to support swap.hbd:swap:busd pool. Can we get the votes?

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Please drop the link here (I'll go look momentarily if you haven't yet) so folks can see. I'll give it a read through and most likely support it.

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dynamicrypto 3 years ago

interesting, I for one had no idea about this going on yet figured there would be some Haejin type circle jerkin goin on under our noses yet not such a large % of the pool... This is too much imo

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kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Neither did I, that's why I dove into it so deeply when it was brought to my attention.

Funny to see the big announcement of how $30,000,000 in rewards went out last year... then realize how much of that was just for these comments, right here.

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dynamicrypto 3 years ago

insane... look at my next comment on this thread i screen shot...

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antisocialist 3 years ago

I just want to know how much is 'enough'.
Someone said the dao has 110million usd worth of hive in it, I have't checked that math, but I can believe that the dao has enough right now.

So, my question is, how much is enough?

I'm seeing a viable platform that should be nearing a slowdown in development, but I don't code so I can't be certain that an end to needed upgrades is all that near, but 100m usd should cover it, right?

blocktrades 3 years ago

You're quoting a theoretical amount based on the current value of Hive, but most of that is not spendable. There's about 10M HBD that is spendable now, and it's more limited than that, because only 1/100th of that 10M HBD can be spent per day. It's not a lot for the chain to spend with, compared to many other chains, unfortunately.

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antisocialist 3 years ago

How much more is there to be done on the layer one?
I know layer two is unlimited, but how close is layer one to completion?

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blocktrades 3 years ago

Software of this type rarely ever reaches a true state of completion, as long as there are creative people working on the software, because new ideas emerge for how to improve things. But here's a list of some ideas for future improvements to hived that I can think of offhand that I believe should be done.

fix locking problems in blockchain/p2p interface

We've known for some time that when Steemit re-used the p2p layer from BitShares in Steem, they didn't get the locking code done correctly. This is definitely on the list to get fixed. It doesn't cause any data errors, but it impacts hived performance. It can potentially cause a node to lose connectivity to peers if the blockchain thread gets tied up doing too much work.

improvements to p2p layer

Improvements to the performance and functionality of the p2p layer. While I think Hive has one of the best existing p2p layers among crypto projects, the work on it was stopped before it was ever optimized to its fullest. It was designed during BitShares 1.0 days and BitShares funding started running out, so we got moved from working on the p2p layer since it was "good enough" to helping out in other areas of the code that were suffering (for example, the BitShares code for resolving forking logic was broken and they needed some smart guys to fix it).

reduction of the storage footprint required to operate a hived node

There's a couple of interesting things that could be worked on here:

use of compression to reduce the size of the block_log
look into ways of operating "lite" nodes that don't need to keep all of the block_log locally. This could even include some kind of distributed and redundant storage between nodes where different nodes keep different blocks and share them as needed. In an extreme case, there could be very lite nodes that only keep new blocks.

speed ups to hived API performance

We're working on this now.

speedup block finality

We'll begin researching this soon, as it will allow for further improvement in the performance of HAF-based apps (HAF app performance is already very good, but faster is still better).

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urun 3 years ago

good insights, I didn't know p2p interface comes from bitshares.

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antisocialist 3 years ago

Hmmm, I take your point that 100k per day, 3.65 million per year, is on the low side considering the prevailing wages in the industry.

It seems, to me, that another year, maybe two, will be needed to clean up the things you've listed, so, I guess I can shelve this complaint for some time.

My place in the crab bucket requires that I maximize what goes into the newb attraction pool.
Nothing personal, just business.

With any luck, hive will moon, and the class of 2016 can move on to other things.

nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

Hi @antisocialist. One question, for now.

What is "The class of 2016?"

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antisocialist 3 years ago

People that got here in 2016.
People with 5 digit, or less, account numbers?

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nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

So, me, for instance?

blocktrades 3 years ago

It seems pretty clear that the justification of "stabilizing HBD" doesn't really explain the plays that are happening here, not to mention there are TONS of other means to stabilize HBD, like the use of liquidity pools, making it an algorithmic stable coin (currently it has nothing besides the Hive conversion to actually peg it), and the hbdstabilizer project only applies downward pressure, hence it almost always being under a dollar.

It's been explained to you at least half a dozen times that the votes are cast not just to stabilize HBD but also to increase funding for the DHF. I can't figure out if you just don't understand the point or just deciding to ignore it.

dynamichivers 3 years ago

That does make sense actually.

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dynamichivers 3 years ago

I can follow all the logic on both sides but for me it just gets weird understanding that you all still benefit greatly from curation in a big way while trying to stabilize rewards pool and increase funding for DHF. It gets weirdier seeing yall go after anti-government and anti-centralization content. From an outsiders view it seems yall are pro government and pro centralization.

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blocktrades 3 years ago

you all still benefit greatly from curation in a big way while trying to stabilize rewards pool and increase funding for DHF.

The people voting for funds to the DHF would benefit the same for voting for anything else. The curation rewards are a non-issue: we get the same rewards either way (actually we tend to get a little less, because transisto is a large stakeholder who hates the DHF and therefore votes against the stabilizer comments). Like @notconvinced, he believes that devs should just make constant posts to get payments instead. IMO, that's completely impractical, however (see my response to him for more details on why).

From an outsiders view it seems yall are pro government and pro centralization.

FWIW, I believe it is important to have some form of organization of human effort. I just think all existing forms of that are deeply flawed and we need to search for better solutions. I've spent a lot of time thinking about the subject, so I even have some ideas nowadays about where we might start to look, but that's a topic for another time.

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dynamichivers 3 years ago

I appreciate your time on the matter sir. I also understand the work all the witnesses are doing to progress hive. So thank you for your time for a small fish like me! I hope a solution is created to better bridge the community of hive with the important stake holders and witnesses that keep it all running.

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notconvinced 3 years ago

Hmm, how many curation projects did you pull out of and many authors did you stop supporting? I'm going to guess none to very few...

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blocktrades 3 years ago

I don't really understand what you're trying to imply by your question. It should be obvious, that to the extent I'm voting for hbdfunder comments, I'm voting less for other authors. But a fair amount of my stake still votes on posts. I'm sure it is no secret that I vote heavily on marketing and software development posts related to Hive, for example.

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notconvinced 3 years ago

The point is that possible curation returns does not equal actual curation returns, which should be obvious... Your statement below is just a rationale that doesn't quite apply to the conversation.

So,

The people voting for funds to the DHF would benefit the same for voting for anything else. The curation rewards are a non-issue:

I myself want to hear how we'll further decentralize the platform, but it seems few of those capable of doing so, yourself included aren't having that conversation.

Making Hive competitive against the web2 platforms is bringing more users in, but killing the quality. We need to get back to what makes us different, beyond earning and that's getting away from centralized control.

Since we are almost into our 3rd year and the steem witness votes for witnesses are still in use, I take this as you are reluctant to give up the power you've enjoyed. Or at least, those placed in positions to help YOU achieve your goals with Hive. You fill the number 1 spot, so are unlikely to loose your position in the top 20.

Which brings me to the fact that the top 20 consensus is the biggest obstacle to ever reaching decentralization. I hope you start getting into the decentralized state of mind or Hive's core concept will be lost.

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dynamichivers 3 years ago

My question is why is flags seemingly centered on content that is anti-centralization. Weird as I never really saw you flagging people when seeing them when supporting said content.

therealflaws 3 years ago

seemingly centered on content that is anti-centralization

I assume that most of those postings are stupid and the users believe they don't deserve any of the rewards.

Do you have links tho? It would be interesting to take a look at it.

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https://hivealive.io/untrending

informationwar 3 years ago

dynamichivers 3 years ago

Honestly, I stopped curating that content months ago and have seen like maybe one flag maybe 2 in past 4 months unless its brought to my attention by community when it happens to @ura-soul as he does make great content that is well sourced. You go can over his posts or others like @lukewearechange for example. But I digress I have been left alone by these people and have not seen the flags while curating anything not anti-government.

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ura-soul 3 years ago

FYI, all of my posts are either directly or indirectly aimed at helping the healing, balancing and evolution of humanity. My whole life is actually centred on this and a big part of that is supporting decentralisation in ways that serve as many as possible.

After having put in years of time and effort into Steem and Hive (having abandoned my own previous social network project to do so), I am now told by someone on a major power trip that I am basically dirt and should leave Hive. He habitually lies about me in public and downvotes most of my posts to as close to zero as possible.

I found that during COVID I was getting strong support here for sharing the benefit of my research over the last 15 years into health, pharma, vaccines and related social dynamics. Regularly getting big upvotes from a variety of whales, including those who are known to have brought the best price and onboarding value to Hive through their projects. In short, a lot of influential people here appreciate what I am doing as they do their own thinking, own research and see that most of what I say checks out - plus can save lives.

You will find in my posts (prior to habitual massive downvotes via a top 20 witness who once actually voted for me as a witness himself) information that was being denied in the mainstream and that massively counters the controlled narrative being perpetuated by monied interests who care nothing for humans. I've watched too many people die as a result of the lies being spread by the controlled science industry for me to shut up.

The downvoters have been asked to provide evidence to back up their false claims and have never even attempted it once. To observers, their intent is clear - they seem to not even remotely care about what people think of them or have the decency and honour to treat people with respect. This is a major red flag for many people and hence we have the situation we do here.

Personally, I would like to see much more respect between people and intent to have balance, instead of childish ego battles - but that's something each individual needs to choose on their own.

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dynamichivers 3 years ago

And to further clarify I do not appreciate how luke does not power up his hive and still leans heavy on web 2.0 but maybe he would make more hive exclusive content if he wasnt always downvoted.

informationwar 3 years ago

Believe it or not, most people here who are not here for decentralization, they are here to earn blogging rewards.

It's the same question anyone asks about Politics, follow the money.

Why is it that a Politician goes into office poor and 4 years to 8 years later when their 1st or 2nd term is done they come out millionaires? Was it that they just do such a good job that their constituents just mailed money to them to thank them for their great service?

Same question for Steem/Hive/BTC/ETH/whatever applies, there are always people who come into a system and gain massively. All the people buying and selling NFTs on Ethereum aren't all about decentralization, they are about making money, and being on a decentralized chain is of little consequence to them. If they could make massive amounts of money by being on a super centralized chain they will go there and do that.

There's always money to be made in any given system, and the people who exploit that do that. I don't do that, as can be seen by my almost non-existent earnings over 4 years.

dynamichivers 3 years ago

There is way more to our blockchain than rewards. Unfortunately, the concept of how to treat finances in a mutually beneficial way that is healthy is lost upon society as a whole when our leaders act in a corrupt way as well as operating in a debt based society. Hive is weird as I have seen it be a perfect reflection of the for realz world. Currently, I am leaning on it to survive until I get some money in February and get to a community in Idaho where I can survive better outside of hive. Truly, each time I cash out hive it hurts mostly for tax reasons and I want to grow my stake. But I am also helping others, curating content content, creating content while still investing into our ecosystem. I feel that the rewards pool is community based and should be more DAO based in regards to downvotes and content reward moderation instead of by individual stake holders who really have no need to answer to anyone but also shouldn't be acting like a police force. But understanding Graphene tech and how that works there is justification to do so by the people who operate the system to help protect it in how they see fit. That is where the white paper leaves it up to interpretation on how exactly that should be handled. A DAO system like @nathanmars brought up is essential i feel to help our large stake holders from being isolated from community and give the community greater ability to form consensus on what content should be monitored for rewards pool mining and moderation. Otherwise we run the risk of forking again or losing potential investors into this system.

I feel content rewards is a key part of ownership. As it is it is hard to just cash out and leave with a 13 week power down. I can go on but rewards are only a small part of Hive and its more of a fallacy to think people only come here for money. I see too much well written blogs and content. Not to mention big names sharing their content and not even touching their liquid hive.

Have you heard of Pimp your post Thursdays or The terminal? These are great discord based communities on Hive that do a great job of making people feel like it is worth staying on hive while creating great content. I find most leave hive because they do not get recognized or see content downvoted aggressively that is anti-government and anti-centralization leaving many confused as to if it is decentralized and really pro-government. I know I came to steem in 2017 because of the concept of content ownership and to better support anti government content/anti plutocratic content. Turns out I found niche curating and helping others while developing blog writing skills. Also finding strong communities. Unless you are BTC maximalist one would think web 3.0 people would be anti-government and anti-plutocracy and coming to Hive for these reasons aside from blogging and owning content.

informationwar 3 years ago

Well, after being in Steem/Hive, I can say in my own view that Hive needs to be forked off at some point and have a reset. Only some of the unfair stake was not carried over from Steem -> Hive, there still exists enough so that the top 20 are permanently in power.

The goal of a decentralized system should be to ensure that whales become less and less of a whale over time. I'm not sure how that's going to happen unless they sell. I am in favor of raising the inflation drastically so that their stake is watered down, and this can be more decentralized to the point of where it's super rare for someone to have even 0.01% of the total Hive.

The super majority of people only need 100 HP to make dozens of comments and a few posts per day. Anything more than that is essentially a waste, as the limitation of onboarding new people is liquid hive neeind to be bought for them. RC stuff helps solve that issue, but then RCs will be rented out and delegated to projects and make whales even more income when that starts to happen(this already happens on the EOS chain).

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kennyskitchen 3 years ago

If they could make massive amounts of money by being on a super centralized chain they will go there and do that.

Hence the massive growth of BSC for NFTs, games, and DeFi.

Fully centralized, but they give 0 fucks.

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notconvinced 3 years ago

Why are we even still using this method? Last April you stated it was only until the next hardfork, a couple of months.

Just to throw this out there, I'm against having a dhf at all. You make plenty through your posts and can just post more when you feel you deserve more. Same for all others who are developing. This is the best method for the platform to decide if funding is warranted or the new code is wanted. Then HBD value is moot.

Oh, your curation rewards are not dust either. Kenny has simply done here what blockchain was built for. Brought to the light unethical behavior through the transparency it provides.

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blocktrades 3 years ago

Why are we even still using this method? Last April you stated it was only until the next hardfork, a couple of months.

Which method are you referring to? The stabilizer? The stabilizer has a small advantage over just relying on stakeholders with liquid Hive and HBD to perform conversions: it doesn't lose from the 5% burn on Hive to HBD conversions (because the DHF has a 0% conversion cost on Hive to HBD, unless liquid Hive holders). This means that the DHF can still profit from conversions when HBD is less than 1.05 but greater than 1, whereas liquid Hive holders can't.

Ultimately this means that when the peg is reasonably tight, the stabilizer can deliver profits to the DHF. If HBD strays too far above the peg, then individual stakeholders can begin to profit (and bring in their own funds to apply more pressure to the peg). On the whole, I think it's a very good system, although every aspect wasn't planned from the start: normally the profits are shared by everyone who benefits from the work of the DHF and when those funds aren't sufficient, individual stakeholders can pitch in and profit as well.

I didn't have this aspect figured out when we initially designed the reverse conversion, but it became apparent after we start analyzing the functioning of the stabilizer in light of the new conversion functionality. I believe there were some post discussions between @smooth, me, and probably others on this topic in the past.

Just to throw this out there, I'm against having a dhf at all. You make plenty through your posts and can just post more when you feel you deserve more. Same for all others who are developing. This is the best method for the platform to decide if funding is warranted or the new code is wanted.

I can say with great confidence that many of the best coders don't like to spend their time making posts. If Hive relied on prolific posting to pay coders, it would end up with coders that like to talk a lot but don't get much done. A lot of the best coders tend to be introverts.

Even if that weren't true, you would have a hard time finding coders who will work fulltime when their salary lacks some guaranteed stability.

Then HBD value is moot.

Stabilization of HBD value is meant for more than just DHF payments. That is just a starting usecase for it. Having a currency that maintains some stability versus hard goods is important for all forms of commerce.

Oh, your curation rewards are not dust either. Kenny has simply done here what blockchain was built for. Brought to the light unethical behavior through the transparency it provides.

No, my curation rewards are quite awesome, although in all honesty they represent a relatively small part of my total income last year. But no one said they were dust: I think curation rewards are a strong incentive for people to hold Hive. The only downside is that they're immediate income and not capital gains, so there's no way to defer them for tax purposes. I have to work hard nowadays to try to figure out ways to spend them on business expenses before the end of my tax year(it's hard to hire quality devs fast enough nowadays).

What unethical behavior are you referring to? Voting for more rewards to go to the DHF? There's nothing unethical about that, IMO, it's just common sense if you believe that we need more developers on Hive.

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notconvinced 3 years ago

Yeah, this just shows that when profit equals power, it will always be abused. I myself am against the way the DHF is funded and that it exists at all.

Being a developer who the community feels brings value will earn more votes on posts. They could easily fund themselves handsomely just by posting updates. Instead they decide to create their own pool for easier returns.

That's also why it took so long to code in decaying rewards, creating the facade that Hive users voted for the current witnesses, when Steem votes are still in the mix. A lot of them... That's probably also the reason we can't downvote proposals, only upvote them.

If we could downvote proposals, we, the average user would have more control. Please don't try to refute my claim by mentioning the Return Proposal? That's just smoke and mirrors. I'd like to see the Return Proposal remain AND downvotes added...

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6 votes

yayogerardo 3 years ago

There exists a proposal to add DV to proposals and to DV witnesses.

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antisocialist 3 years ago

You got a link?
I'm not seeing it on the proposals page in the wallets.

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yayogerardo 3 years ago

I remember upvoting that proposal either 1 or 2 months ago. I'll give it a search through. It was through @logiczombie that I found out about it. Someone commented about it in one of her posts.

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rawbe 3 years ago

There was a post about a proposal that created some confusion when they thought that was the nature of the proposal. The author noted that if the current proposal wasn't passed they would go the other direction attempting to add DV to proposals. https://ecency.com/hive-110786/@dynamicsteemians/the-hive-whitepaper-and-updating-the-dpos-protocols-for-downvoting-with-a-community-proposal

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yayogerardo 3 years ago

@antisocialist yes this is the one. disregard that last comment i made second ago xP

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informationwar 3 years ago

That is interesting, the DHF cannot be downvoted.

I wonder why that is?

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nathanmars 3 years ago

It will create more drama

Posted Using LeoFinance ^Beta

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blocktrades 3 years ago

It has no downvoting because it was modeled after similar code used in BitShares. Apparently the BitShares version did allow downvoting in some early form, from what I've heard, but apparently it was removed a long time ago(I'm not sure if that was before or after it was initially deployed on BitShares). I also don't know the specifics of why that happened.

Some people have asked for individual downvoting on proposals, but it's never seemed to be a big issue to me personally, so I didn't want to devote coding/testing resources to it. If someone wants to add support for it and add suitable tests, it's fine by me, as I have no strong opinion on the feature one way or the other. Other stakeholders can weigh in on the subject if they have an interest.

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informationwar 3 years ago

Thanks for the response.

Do you think at some point there "should" be downvoting for DHF proposals? I just think of it as a "might want to put it in there before someone abuses it". I do realize however it would be expensive for someone to upvote themselves on the DHF, or potentially mislead enough people to do so. Might be more of a threat in the future when cryptocurrency is worth more, and people convert from major coins into Hive, for example.

Then, maybe someone comes over with a lot of power and upvotes their own proposal to give themselves 50k HBD a day for a year and just dumps it.

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blocktrades 3 years ago

I think the biggest argument against downvotes of a proposal is that it gives more power to large stakeholders to downvote a proposal they don't like, without interfering with other proposals. Right now, if I wanted to defund a proposal that was voted in, my only recourse would be to raise the refund limit (assuming I wasn't already voting on it with my full strength), potentially cutting off proposals I want to get funded. With downvoting, that would not be true.

So it really depends on whether stakeholders want more or less proposals to get funded I guess (I'm not really sure that is how it would work out, but that's my best guess).

Might be more of a threat in the future when cryptocurrency is worth more, and people convert from major coins into Hive, for example. Then, maybe someone comes over with a lot of power and upvotes their own proposal to give themselves 50k HBD a day for a year and just dumps it.

I don't think this is much of a threat, because to do it they would have to such a huge stake and lock it up, and then they have to worry about being forked out by everyone else. If they could achieve a proposal attack on the DHF, they can do the same thing to witness votes, but we saw how that worked out for Justin Sun.

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ura-soul 3 years ago

Thanks for your comments here. As you may be aware, I have had the majority of my content on Hive downvoted to zero for several months, mostly by one person with access to millions of HP. This has understandably caused me to post less because I have bills to pay, need to put my time into what is productive and also it is demoralising to go through this (especially with the circumstances surrounding the specifics of the situation too). I could go on and on about this topic from a marketing perspective, what I've learned as a systems engineer and digital marketer about social network design and human psychology - but I'll leave that for now. Anyway, I found your comments here to be interesting for a few reasons:

I think the biggest argument against downvotes of a proposal is that it gives more power to large stakeholders to downvote a proposal they don't like,

This is the same reason I have a problem with the current scaling of free downvotes of the content reward pool. I think it's fine to have free downvoting to regulate the rewards pool and mitigate spam, but the current levels motivate people to go beyond that and to target posts for personal or political/ideological reasons (which is currently happening quite a lot). The net result is that many, many people have given up on Hive. I get messages daily since launching The untrending report from all kinds of people telling me their stories. Some of them are telling me that their downvoting started after they stopped voting for certain witnesses too. Generally, they are looking for solutions, getting ready to leave or already have left.

I also commented on Gettr scooping up millions of new users as a result of promotion by Joe Rogan of people who I know personally to some extent and who 'broke' stories that I had already broken on Hive months before. My posts on these topics now get zeroed on Hive. So one of the main topics for marketing Hive's key selling point (censorship resistance), that is responsible for the rapid growth of one of Hive's competitors - is actually getting obliterated from Hive. Ironically this is happening in the name of 'free speech' because some people say that massive downvoting is an example of 'free speech'. Setting aside my own involvement and being as objective as I can, as a marketer and system engineer, I'd say that's a huge error and I strongly urge large stakeholders to consider lowering the amount of free downvotes that accounts have on Hive before it is too late.

So it really depends on whether stakeholders want more or less proposals to get funded I guess (I'm not really sure that is how it would work out, but that's my best guess).

In the context of my comments above, this 2nd quote can also be applied to downvotes of the author pool. The amount of downvotes directly effects the amount of authors and posts that get rewards. The more downvotes we have, the more the reward pool is centralised. This is really spinning Hive in a negative light for many people currently. I am fairly confident that some large accounts have set themselves downvote quotas, to try to target those who don't support their witness or for other personal/political goals. This has the effect of maximising their returns, since my data shows that downvoting currently returns between 4% and 8% to the reward pool - presumably boosting all returns from upvoting by those amounts. This means that large HP holders have a significant financial and political motivation to downvote as much as possible - which in turn incentivizes the use of downvotes for information suppression at the same time.

For those who perhaps don't use Hive to spread information to the wider world - and especially the information that contradicts corporate/mainstream narratives, this might not all be obvious, so I am pointing it out as much as I can. There are renowned professors and high profile people who have come to Hive to escape censorship on web 2.0 during COVID, which is great, but they are supported much more on other platforms that are actually technically less capable of Hive of supporting them.. The reason is that the people running the alternative platforms actively encourage them to be there, whereas currently the most active high HP holders on Hive are trying to mostly get rid of them, without even explaining why or ever providing any evidence to backup their actions.

It would be great to have a conversation on this topic - there are many people who want it to happen, including numerous whales who won't speak out publicly and kind of want me to do it since I am anyway.

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jesustiano 3 years ago

Plot armor. Or coding to be honest. Basically people coded a way to guarantee no direct attackts on the economy of hive by users, preventing new born whales. We should just build a whale to hit them with it. If hive protesters againts the hegemony of the current whales is real, we could actually delegate a shitload to one single acc and hit them with it until we get answers. But noone would take that risk, just like noone would accumulate enougth money for it and spent it on hive. Basically you could buy slowly but surely a shitload of hive and also become a whale big enought to demand for answers, if not get any, them dv the shit out of those comments until someone comes foward.

Those solutions are long them becouse the big stakers have control of the system to an extend, and i get it, is ok. That is how the world works.

If you ever decide to actually make a whale with a 2k$ vote. Bigger than most of these whales. Remember me xD and upvote something i did on hive. xD

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informationwar 3 years ago

All we can do is band together and try to decentralize this place as best we can.

That's why #informationwar and #deepdives exist for political people. I barely make a thing from upvoting because we only have 27k HP on our owned account @informationwar, the real power comes from the 100+ people who upvote what we upvote by following our upvote.

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julianhorack 3 years ago

Yes I will delegate some of mine to you bud, your service to free speech and information sharing is crucial in today's world where the centralized elites are deliberately driving the masses to death and insanity.

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informationwar 3 years ago

appreciate it!

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jesustiano 3 years ago

If 100 people upvote at 1% is the same as nothing

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dynamichivers 3 years ago

It is simply way whitepaper is written. But downvoting wont solve issue since since its staked based and clearly they all are working together. I do not know. Maybe only solution is to get rid rid of downvoting that is only applied to content. Still wont solve the problem of system being gamed but will allow for community not to be affected as greatly by downvotes. but this is all why i love @spknetwork that aims to solve some issues but not all.

informationwar 3 years ago

will spknetwork be it's own separate blockchain? I haven't read the whitepaper so forgive my nooby question!

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dynamichivers 3 years ago

http://spk.network/
spk network

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informationwar 3 years ago

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dynamichivers 3 years ago

From what i understand spk will be a separate network. I left a link for peerplays that will use hive and spk. It is a lot to digest. I recommend visiting their posts. I will grab link.

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dynamichivers 3 years ago

https://discord.gg/JbhQ7dREsP
spk discord

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https://community.peerplays.tech/concepts/decentralization

dynamichivers 3 years ago

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https://ecency.com/hive-112019/@spknetwork/spk-network-ama-faqs

dynamichivers 3 years ago

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blocktrades 3 years ago

like the use of liquidity pools, making it an algorithmic stable coin (currently it has nothing besides the Hive conversion to actually peg it)

It's hard to pin down the dumbest comment you've made in this post, but this may be it. "nothing besides the Hive conversion" is really dumb. The two way conversion is incredibly powerful at allowing for the peg to be maintained (much more powerful than a liquidity pool).

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10 votes

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

The two way conversion is incredibly powerful at allowing for the peg to be maintained (much more powerful than a liquidity pool).

If that's so, why does the HBDStabilizer require $2.4M a month from the DHF and another $10k+ per day from the comments.

How much does the 2-way conversion cost (create in inflation)?

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blocktrades 3 years ago

If that's so, why does the HBDStabilizer require $2.4M a month from the DHF and another $10k+ per day from the comments.

The funds from the stabilizer flow back to the DHF. And the DHF profits from it. The stabilizer acts as a mini-profit center for the DHF. This has been explained many times in posts in the past. You constantly repeat the same questions without bothering to discuss the answers you're given.

How much does the 2-way conversion cost (create in inflation)?

This has also been discussed in depth in other posts, but it's a mildly complicated equation with no guaranteed direction (inflationary or deflationary), because it can depend a lot on whether Hive goes up or down in price (there's also a 5% burn factor on Hive->HBD conversions). But so far it has made Hive net deflationary (because Hive price has tended to go up and because of the burn factor).

@dalz just recently wrote an detailed and informative post on this very subject. I feel like you should take a little more time to read what others have written: https://hive.blog/hive-167922/@dalz/hive-ends-2021-deflationary-with-2-73-or-a-look-at-the-inflation-and-supply-for-december-and-2021

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smooth 3 years ago

Liquidity pools don't target a peg at all. They are agnostic to the value. (As I'm sure you know, but following up here to agree that comment was dumb.)

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Liquidity pools don't target a peg at all. They are agnostic to the value. (As I'm sure you know, but following up here to agree that comment was dumb.)

Nobody ever said they did. The point you're misrepresenting was people theorizing that more Liquidity Pools, and those LPs being picked up in price feeds, would help stabilize the price of HBD.

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smooth 3 years ago

I don't actually see what more liquidity pools would do. There are liquidity pools now, and anyone who wants to invest in them can. So the stabilizing effect is there. In fact it is reasonably stable, and that may be one reason.

It's not enough to stabilize the price to the peg however. For that you need something that is contingent on the relationship between the price and the peg, such as the conversion functions and the stabilizer bot.

and those LPs being picked up in price feeds

I agree that should be done, but, in practice, is there a big difference in the price on the pools and the price on centralized exchanges? I suspect not, and if there is not, then adding these pools to the price feeds wouldn't do much.

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leprechaun 3 years ago

Do you think there is value in a liquidity pool with USDT on BNB or BSC and other dollar pegged assets with HBD? I don't know if I am the only one here, but I sure wish I could go directly from USDT to HBD without some floating asset in the middle several times and all the while losing a lot of value with fees.

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https://hive.blog/hbd/@dalz.shorts/the-best-place-to-buy-hbd--beeswap

smooth 3 years ago

Does this suffice?

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leprechaun 3 years ago

Thank you but what I need is a way to transfer USDT that lives on BSC chain to HBD which lives on Hive. So perhaps if there is another step or set of steps to get from USDT to SWAP.HBD, then I could make convert it that way. It's fine if privex supports it because then I can spend it there.

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smooth 3 years ago

Doesn't Binance convert USDT to BUSD?

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Show 1 more reply

urun 3 years ago

is the talk about the internal liquidy pool or general liquidy pools?

I mean with conversion mechanic integrated into a pool ( or on top) with auto compound + initial investment from DAO, HBD could become real stable. Because the fear of a bottleneck is gone ( for large amounts).

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smooth 3 years ago

I'd have to see a very specific proposal to comment. That's more than a pool, and we already have conversions and pools, so I'm not sure anything is actually improved by combining them.

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urun 3 years ago

In general, I truly believe more liquidy on HBD/Hive + conversations ( from HBD-stabilizer or community in a fund) will help massively in terms of:

Make HBD more stable, because larger trades are possible (less fear of get stuck) + more attractive to maintain price, because of larger amounts can be used for that ( look exchanges trade BUSD/USDT in xx Millions and make some profits).

But for that volume is needed :)

And if the pool has some base investment from DAO that never will be withdrawn, it would work as a burn/ DEFI 2.0 with contract-owned liquidity.

I would also expect, it's a good sell point for HBD " look you can trade 1 Million USD at once.

With a swap fee that auto compound, I see a working instrument that can help to make HBD more stable.

Remove the fear of bottleneck is in crypto a super power and a onchain pool L1 would be the most decentralized DeFi protocol in the entire crypto space.

themarkymark 3 years ago

It's hard to pin down the dumbest comment you've made in this post

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urun 3 years ago

liquidity pool (Hive/HBD as internal marketplace V2) + conversion mechanic = superpower.

I don't read everything above, so it could be out of context :)

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tarazkp 3 years ago

This made me laugh. Thank you. :)

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wanderingmoon 3 years ago

I can not understand for the life of me why there has to be such behavior. I'm Switzerland on this and wholeheartedly believe in #liveandletlive so long as no one is being physically harmed. As for those who choose to believe what they believe then what harm comes to them (imo) it is on them for the belief.
#asamanthinkethsoshallhebe

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julianhorack 3 years ago

Having just read the entire last 92 comments, I want to thank the whales/devs for their attempt to keep the Hive blockchain stable and decentralized. I also feel Kenny deserves a huge thanks for his sincere effort in research, as well as his concern for the wellbeing of Hive and we Hivers.

Decentralization is the goal as well as stabilization. The massive stats and numbers mentioned by Kenny are a concern to me. They look like the whales have too much power in their ability to game the system.

I know human nature is flawed and greed is in all of us sometimes. But the ethos of any great blockchain should be free speech and decentralized power. Already this system invented by Dan Larimer of 20 top witnesses is too centralized in my opinion. That's why EOS is not for me either.

Besides the centralization here on Hive, I am concerned about the business of some to downvote anti-govt info and posts like those on informationwar etc. When the govts and elite of the world are now systematically committing crimes against humanity, we need a platform for free speech and an alternative viewpoint. Or are we another Twitter/FB sell-out like every other MSM?

Hive has loads of potential and has benefitted me and others greatly, so full respect. I am a novice in tech and finance so have no solutions or place to critique the logic, but I want to see more decentralization and more human right to free speech without risk of mainstream lies being promoted and true whistleblowing shamed. I am, after all, also Julian.

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blocktrades 3 years ago

stealing from Blocktrades' budget?

What proposal of mine is being funded by the DHF?

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kennyskitchen 3 years ago

What proposal of mine is being funded by the DHF?

I didn't mention a proposal. I was talking about how apparently my downvotes took away something like 7% of the rewards you were getting on hbd.funder for those days.

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blocktrades 3 years ago

Oh, you were referring to my curation rewards that were lost due to your downvotes? I'm reasonably sure that transisto does more damage than that to them.

When you're downvoting those comments, you're not stealing my rewards: you don't get them and I wasn't guaranteed them.

But you are effectively lowering how much I can pay devs and how much funds that the DHF can pay devs. I've never even bothered to complain when transisto does that, because at least it is his stake, and he suffers proportionally with the rest of us as a result. But I do find it obnoxious when you do it with someone else's stake: you don't suffer proportionally but you were happy to virtue signal about it left and right like you are the great deliverer.

tarazkp 3 years ago

But I do find it obnoxious when you do it with someone else's stake: you don't suffer proportionally but you were happy to virtue signal about it left and right like you are the great deliverer.

While using the curation earned from that stake to pad out a Splinterlands account to the tune of 100K worth...

Kenny is all class.

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meesterboom 3 years ago

I was looking at that. It's not peanuts. Thousands upon thousands of hive. There is some smoke and mirrors mastery at work with this delegation it seems

tarazkp 3 years ago

Definitely not peanuts....

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kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Nothing is ever hidden, or ever has been.

I have complete control of TSU. I also follow a few trails with it.

I get all the curation rewards (because that's what James said when he gave me the big delegation - until that point it was paying out rewards to delegators)

I spend this money on projects (like people's albums, books, events, feeding thousands of people, helping eco-villages, and living my life)

It's my stake, I can do whatever I want with it, right? That's the entire argument that all the whales are making.

Hilarious how the people who literally run everything because of their centralized stake, want to pick on someone who distributes their vote more widely than just about anyone else on the platform, is transparent about everything he does, and has a small % of any one of those whales.

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meesterboom 3 years ago

I didn't say you couldn't use your stake however you want. You can. It's just not really your stake.

I thought you were against downvoting and yet you seem to be throwing them out?

I spend this money on projects (like people's albums, books, events, feeding thousands of people, helping eco-villages, and living my life)

I do remember you did lots of charity/giving stuff in the past but now it looks as if it all goes to Splinterlands. How much is your deck worth?

I guess we can take your word for it that James said you could take the curation and spaff it all on Splinterlands cards?

Hilarious how the people who literally run everything because of their centralized stake, want to pick on someone who distributes their vote more widely than just about anyone else on the platform, is transparent about everything he does, and has a small % of any one of those whales.

I don't literally run everything. Is this comment aimed at me or a generality?

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kennyskitchen 3 years ago

How do I not suffer proportionately? I am the sole recipient of curation rewards on TSU, as it has been since James gave me the delegation and I stopped needing to ask for delegations in exchange for rewards.

I've literally dedicated the entire last 5.5 years of my life to this place. Speaking and presenting it at hundreds of events, on-boarding (by hand, in person, hours each) hundreds of people (only 2 of whom stuck around because it's SO hard for people to use), constantly promoting it, and generally just staying out of the way of you big stakeholders that run this place.

But, now that all the truthers & journalists are being run off by top witnesses and big whales, I'm done with it, and I will keep calling it out until I stop logging in.

The DVs achieved more than I could have hoped - you actually started to pay attention a little bit to what's happening on the chain.

Of course, you're not really looking. You keep ignoring the part about azircon/curangel, acidyo/ocdb, and altleft systematically zero-ing out users.

The only reason I started poking around at this hbd.funder stuff is to show the utter hypocrisy of those "protecting the rewards pool" from actual users.

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blocktrades 3 years ago

How do I not suffer proportionately? I am the sole recipient of curation rewards on TSU, as it has been since James gave me the delegation and I stopped needing to ask for delegations in exchange for rewards.

You don't suffer proportionately because it is not your stake, you only derive some income from it. So if the price of hive drops, you may lose some curation rewards, but you don't suffer the principal loss (which is much higher than the curation reward loss). This is just simple math, it boggles my mind a bit that you cannot understand such simple economic concepts.

The DVs achieved more than I could have hoped - you actually started to pay attention a little bit to what's happening on the chain.

If you think you've suddenly alerted me to the fact that people don't like being downvoted (for any reason, political ideology or otherwise), you must be out of your mind. It's been a topic for years on Hive, and on Steem before that.

But it is part of the design of Hive and I don't see any consensus by stakeholders to change it. If you can't tolerate it, you can always go to another platform like Blurt that doesn't have downvotes.

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mmykel 3 years ago

It seems like, if you were to make a proposal along this line of thought, you'll get a lot of support.

For one, you'll get mine

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blocktrades 3 years ago

Curation rewards are one of the benefits of being a hive power holder. It's already been pointed out several times to you that anyone voting for these posts could just as easily follow a curation trail and achieve the same curation rewards that you are whining about. If investors want to fund development, that is their right.

It's more than a bit self-serving to upvote these uninformed FUD posts of yours with James' stake, so I'm going to start downvoting to counter it.

1.23 VYB

14 votes

sachingeorge 3 years ago

I think what he is actually trying to say is that some Posts with low quality is also getting overvalued curation. The reward pool is getting misused here.
I also felt that way by looking at some posts in some communities. If this is continued, what happened to steemit will happen to hive and investors will stop investments and the hive price will go down. It's for the best that he pointed this out. I support him as blockchain reward pool should never be misused like this by some groups of individuals on hive.

0.00 VYB

blocktrades 3 years ago

No, if you read his post above (and other posts he has maid in his blog), you will see he is actually on the other side of the issue.

His primary complaint has been he is opposed to downvoting as a way of lowering post rewards.

Well, except when he does it, apparently, in which case he seems to feel totally complacent about not only downvoting comments and posts critical of him, but is also more than willing to go on a downvoting spree against that user's other posts/comments in a revenge attack. See @nonameslefttouse's comment for more details on one such example.

0.00 VYB

sachingeorge 3 years ago

I read his comment just now, but still "isn't hive a decentralized platform and the hbdstabilizer account is owned by someone or a group of individuals. If the hive was centralised it will be properly regulated but as it's decentralized will there be any guarantee that the hbdstabilizer account won't get misused one day.

Anyways I know, it's none of my business but still, I asked this because I was just curious to know about it.

0.00 VYB

blocktrades 3 years ago

The operation of the the hdbstabilizer is completely transparent, because it only undertakes operations on the blockchain. So if the current, well trusted operator (@smooth) ever decided to misuse those funds, it would quickly be detected and the proposal funding for it would be cut off extremely quickly.

Personally, having conversed with smooth for many years now, I have a high degree of confidence in his integrity, and I think this is true for many other stakeholders as well. But it's also worth pointing out that @smooth is one of the larger stakeholders in Hive, so it would not make much sense for him financially to abuse the funds he controls. And he's intentionally designed his bots to minimize the risks of malfeasance (for example, in the case the keys for the stabilizer-related accounts got hacked).

In summary, the risk for misuse of funds is very low, and the rewards from its operation are high.

0.57 VYB

azircon 3 years ago

Kenny is all misinformation. It's dangerous and basically a negative propaganda. We must request jamesec to remove that delegation. That is the best solution in my humble opinion.

0.12 VYB

blocktrades 3 years ago

I've already emailed James tonight to see if he supports this. I had an earlier email from him that leads me to believe he doesn't, but I'll see what he says.

azircon 3 years ago

Thanks! I sincerely expect that jamesec understands and hopefully put a stop to this insanity.

0.00 VYB

introvertspeaks 3 years ago

What a soyboy clowntard, yes you are

0.00 VYB

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

We came to the decision not to downvote the hbd.funder comments anymore. I haven't done so since we made that decision.

Did you think you were somehow going to convince Jimmy to get me to self-censor or something?

0.00 VYB

blocktrades 3 years ago

No, I don't expect anyone to get you to self-censor yourself. Where did you get that idea? I just don't think it makes sense for him to be amplifying your ideas with his stake, when it appears that your comments are aimed at damaging the value of that stake.

0.00 VYB

notconvinced 3 years ago

You state,

when it appears that your comments are aimed at damaging the value of that stake.

This says volumes! This is a free speech platform by design and a dissenting opinion is damaging? No! Dissenting opinions are necessary to prove it is what it claims to be...

When high stake owners care more about the money than the precedent, like your comment implies you've just proved the point @kennyskitchen is making with this post.

blocktrades 3 years ago

This says volumes! This is a free speech platform by design and a dissenting opinion is damaging?

You characterize this post and his comments as just dissent opinions, but they and his previous post on the same topic are mostly focused as an attack on the reputation of the voters for these comments and on Hive in general. He is clearly attacking the chain and essentially accusing it of being worthless. There's no reason a stakeholder who diasgrees with that assessment should vote for his statements, and that's what this discussion is about: I've suggesting to jamesc that he should not allow his voting power be used to promote ideas he doesn't agree with and that hurt the value of the chain he is supporting (including the values of the tokens he holds).

This is a free speech platform: that should be obvious from the amount of criticism that is being discussed now. I just see no reason for the chain to reward criticism that is unfounded, and especially I see no reason for it to reward that criticism with stake from someone who I think disagrees with the criticism.

0.00 VYB

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

You characterize this post and his comments as just dissent opinions, but they and his previous post on the same topic are mostly focused as an attack on the reputation of the voters for these comments and on Hive in general. He is clearly attacking the chain and essentially accusing it of being worthless.

Here are my posts, in TLDR form, since I started down this path:

You whales who've never read or watched my content and didn't know who I was until I started calling out this activity can pretend that I'm just some Hive hater - but the last half of a decade shows how ridiculous that is.

If I didn't care about Hive or wanted to damage it, I would be shit-posting about Hive on my Odysee channel, on Flote, etc. Instead, I'm here, still spending my time, doing research, being slandered and verbally assaulted by multi-millionaires, and trying to shake things up enough that maybe changes happen.

I've accepted that means that I probably won't ever earn posting rewards on Hive again - and it's been freeing to release the attachment that I had to this place.

0.06 VYB

introvertspeaks 3 years ago

How about you suck a bag of dicks ser 🖕

0.00 VYB

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Kenny is all misinformation.

Somehow things that I'm sharing, pulled directly from the blockchain, are misinformation?

It's dangerous and basically a negative propaganda.

Says the person single-handedly attempting to drive journalists & freedom fighters off the platform...

We must request jamesec to remove that delegation.

We've talked recently, he's read my posts, he knows what's going on.

That is the best solution in my humble opinion.

Best solutions would probably include things like:

You stop downvoting actual content creators maliciously & systematically (both from your account and curangel)
Top witnesses stop censoring dissent, publishing libel about users, and pretending they're doing good.
Work towards making Hive actually something like a PoB platform - or remove content rewards from HiveL1 completely, so it doesn't matter - and then inflation TANKS, which is great for Hive.

azircon 3 years ago

I will continue to DV over rewarded content as I mentioned to you earlier.

introvertspeaks 3 years ago

Very busy 'scientist' indeed, such expert 🤡

0.00 VYB

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Go ahead and go after some spam comments making thousands of dollars, instead of content that is high quality, time consuming, and from influencers with more followers than Hive has users, making $50-200.

0.00 VYB

azircon 3 years ago

You are now clinically insane to me. If you can't understand blocktrades and smooth's explanation, smooth being some of the brightest and smartest blockchain expert I know, I can't make you understand. You are a lost case.

0.00 VYB

informationwar 3 years ago

Top witnesses stop censoring dissent, publishing libel about users, and pretending they're doing good.

Wasn't it just a bit over 2 years ago this very thing was happening on Steem?

Good to see things don't change.

3.83 VYB

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Curation rewards are one of the benefits of being a hive power holder.

Unles you're a Hive holder who supports content that folks like azircon/curangel don't like. Then your curation rewards are systematically erased, along with those creators' rewards.

It's already been pointed out several times to you that anyone voting for these posts could just as easily follow a curation trail and achieve the same curation rewards that you are whining about.

And my response every single time has been that the huge difference there is that the other 50% of the stake would be going directly to tons of different creators that way, thus decentralizing Hive more. This part never seems to have a response besides "the DHF is decentralized," which is pretty laughable.

If investors want to fund development, that is their right.

True, and there is a DHF for that, as well as devs who post updates which can be up-voted, and donations and such. To me, the biggest problem here is the lack of transparency ($30M in rewards last year huh - how much went to content?), and the hipocrisy of many of these systematic DVers saying it's because actual content is "over-rewarded," even though we're often talking about 20-40 minute videos and long-form text posts, which earn (before downvotes) only a fraction of one of these comments that are made 10x a day.

It's more than a bit self-serving to upvote these uninformed FUD posts of yours with James' stake, so I'm going to start downvoting to counter it.

The posts have had rewards declined, or in this case 100% burnt. I'm not getting anything out of this.

I'm losing myself curation rewards to upvote this for visibility. Now that you've zero'd this one out, I will be paying Hive to promote it, as I did with the others when they got zero'd out.

blocktrades 3 years ago

True, and there is a DHF for that, as well as devs who post updates which can be up-voted, and donations and such. To me, the biggest problem here is the lack of transparency ($30M in rewards last year huh - how much went to content?),

Assuming your numbers are accurate, it shouldn't have been hard to do a rough approximation from the data you have already generated (the data is quite transparent). Why didn't you figure out an approximate answer instead of just leaving the question hanging and generating undue doubt? Could it be because that this kind of questioning rhetoric is more effective at persuading the uninformed than the actual data?

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Assuming your numbers are accurate, it shouldn't have been hard to do a rough approximation from the data you have already generated (the data is quite transparent). Why didn't you figure out an approximate answer instead of just leaving the question hanging and generating undue doubt? Could it be because that this kind of questioning rhetoric is more effective at persuading the uninformed than the actual data?

I paid someone to run python stuff to get the data out, because this stuff isn't accessible to non-coders.

All that I had him focus on was the hbd.funder account - not the whole history of Hive or something.

The $30,000,000 in rewards I mentioned was simply pulled from multiple big names saying that in their New Year's posts.

Again, nice try at making it look like I did something sketchy or sneaky.

0.00 VYB

blocktrades 3 years ago

Your coder could have probably done the extra work in less than an hour. He still could. It's not the whole history of hive, it's just a matter of pulling the price of hive on that date for each reward and multiplying it by the amount.

0.00 VYB

blocktrades 3 years ago

And my response every single time has been that the huge difference there is that the other 50% of the stake would be going directly to tons of different creators that way, thus decentralizing Hive more. This part never seems to have a response besides "the DHF is decentralized," which is pretty laughable.

Posts were always intended as a way to fund work done for Hive (marketing, software development work, etc). The DHF is another way. The DHF delivers a fixed inflationary amount and gets around some fundament problems associated with funding ongoing work, but posts allow stakeholders to allocate more. I also routinely vote up posts by devs for the work they do, but I'm well aware that the benefits of their work tend to far exceed the amount they can make that way.

Right now, I believe that it makes sense to focus on building more funds for marketing and dev work right now. This could also be done via changes to the base inflation rates in a hardfork, but using posts allows for more flexible voting by the stakeholders, without requiring code changes and a hardfork, and it allows direct voting by stakeholders versus delegated voting via witnesses. You seem to think there is something sacred about the current hardcoded ratios for rewards, but that's just not the case. They were arbitrary numbers almost pulled out of a hat, but that was never a real problem for Hive, because post voting allows for more flexibility about where the rewards go, based on current conditions.

Also, as I have been clear from the beginning if you've read my early posts, I've never considered social media posts to be the primary purpose of Hive. It is a cool aspect, but I believe Hive has a much more useful future than just that.

As a side note, I believe content creators will actually earn more in the long run by funding more marketing and dev efforts, rather than just upvoting the current relatively small number of content creators, because we'll end up with a more valuable token to distribute.

The posts have had rewards declined, or in this case 100% burnt.

I didn't actually notice that, as hive.blog doesn't show it AFAICT. Another case where a little more dev work would be useful.

I'm not getting anything out of this.

Unfortunately, neither is the blockchain or the stakeholders. You may scare away some people who've just joined Hive and don't know who to believe, but are predisposed to believe the guy who claims the other guys are behaving badly. Beyond that, I suspect it is a wash.

1.07 VYB

6 votes

informationwar 3 years ago

Previously, upvotes were used for funding things.

The DHF was created to be the mechanism that now is supposed to be used to funds things.

Now we have the DHF. If things need funded it should go through the DHF.

People can still upvote whatever they want.

The DHF is already funding the HBD Stabilzer for 67,000 HBD a day. Upvoting HBD Funder comments only looks to bring in 10k HBD a day(50/50 split between the upvoters and HBD Funder). So HBD Funder needs 5k more USD a day.

The request should be changed to 72,000 HBD a day.

The upvoters who were upvoting HBD Funder can now go and upvote people who write posts instead of upvoting a comment to fund something(because that's what the DHF is for).

Again, I will ask the question that so far has not receieved a satisfactory answer, why not increase the HBD Funder proposal to 72,000 HBD/day? I would vote for that and most people probably would too.

0.00 VYB

blocktrades 3 years ago

Now we have the DHF. If things need funded it should go through the DHF.

That is just your opinion. There was never any claim when the DHF was created that posts could no longer be used to fund develop. In fact, some stakeholders like transisto believe that ONLY posts should be used to develop software and for makreting efforts. Personally, I think both have their uses.

Again, I will ask the question that so far has not receieved a satisfactory answer, why not increase the HBD Funder proposal to 72,000 HBD/day? I would vote for that and most people probably would too.

And again, I will answer the question: because I want to increase the amount of funding available in the DHF for future development. Increasing the HBD funder proposal will not achieve the same effect to the same degree.

0.00 VYB

informationwar 3 years ago

That is just your opinion. There was never any claim when the DHF was created that posts could no longer be used to fund develop. In fact, some stakeholders like transisto believe that ONLY posts should be used to develop software and for makreting efforts. Personally, I think both have their uses.

Yes, that's why I said should though, I am not saying it "has to". From a design and system perspective that is what it is for.

I can see a problem with this type of thing in that people with lots of money coming into Hive, or people who have lots of money currently, just upvoting it for easy APR. There is always the downvote as a check/balance to keep someone like Haejin or Rancho Relaxo doing that(though they seem to upvote random things on Trending to get around being downvoted in return).

I can see both sides to this, so I am not one way or the other in particular on that issue. I've said that we need to have more funding for Hive/marketing so that is always good, building the ecosystem is good. I don't particularly see the need for a stablecoin made in the way HBD is made, as I am mainly in the Ethereum camp and am pro DAI and other stablecoins. As things progress forward with Dexes and cheaper fees I can see Ethereum/Polygon/BSC having options that are more useful for Hive than HBD. I've separately written a different comment before on how Hive could be distributed for DHF proposals and sold at market prices in other stable coins that are locked in contracts(someone has to write this obviously) instead of having HBD as the funding curency for the DHF. This would have the added benefit of more Hive getting into the hands of minnows/new people joining as the price point would be pushed down with the consistent downward pressue.

For consistency I would like to see everyone trying to encourage all funding stuff to go to the DHF, instead of upvoting comments. The large upvotes on the comments doesn't exactly go against POB, because POB is a very general and encompassing term. I would say it WOULD go against POB if the comments were purely spam and didn't help the ecosystem in any way, but the HBD Funder does help the ecosystem. It's in a sort of weird grey area in my mind, but I wouldn't downvote the HBD Funder comments myself, that's just my view.

0.00 VYB

blocktrades 3 years ago

I can see a problem with this type of thing in that people with lots of money coming into Hive, or people who have lots of money currently, just upvoting it for easy APR. There isn't any check or balance to that except someone downvoting the HBD Funder comments(which it looks like Kenny is now and maybe a few others).

I don't see any risk of it being upvoted just for easy APR. As I mentioned elsewhere, I could achieve the same or better "easy APR" by randomly following a voting trail (something I believe a lot of large stakeholders do, because it gets hard to distribute rewards from a large stake effectively once your stake gets too large). As it is, my APR for curation rewards is a little smaller than if I followed a trail, but I consider it worth it because I'm a strong believer in building up more funding for future marketing and development.

My argument is more from a consistency mindset, in that we should try and encourage all funding stuff to go to the DHF instead of upvoting comments.

The mechanism that Hive lacks right now is a way for stakeholders to dynamically vote for how inflation is directed. Those numbers are currently hardcoded and can only be changed by a hardfork. A long time ago, @smooth suggested we have a mechanism that allowed for this, and I've always liked that idea, but like all changes it would require more work and testing and could result in unexpected problems. I've always considered voting for posts and comments that fund marketing and development as a good compromise on that idea, because it doesn't require code changes.

0.00 VYB

ura-soul 3 years ago

I spoke with Smooth about this question of dynamic inflation pools only a few days ago at some length. He said he still thought it was a good idea but that he didn't think any decision makers in Hive were interested in it. I put a strong case for implementing something that regulates the public image of the reward pool on Hive and ensures that percentages allotted to each category of reward are adhered to. People look at investment trackers to identify projects to put funds into and they often list the percentages that Hive pays to witnesses, the reward pool and the DHF. If potential new investors look at those percentages, decide they like them but then come here and find out that the reality is quite different - with developers syphoning funds from author rewards into developer rewards - many will just drop hive into the 'scam' bucket that they are primed to do with all projects they investigate because so many really are scammy.

Overcoming the negative PR accrued by Hive due to Steem and other reasons is going to require intense focus on every single 'small' opportunity to tick all the boxes of people who check Hive out. I have a hell of a time getting anyone new to come from web 2.0 to Hive at the moment.. It was similar with Steem, but actually even harder with Hive. As a marketer, I will say clearly here that no stone can be left unturned when dealing with these issues.

0.00 VYB

notconvinced 3 years ago

It's actually the perceived and very real oligarchy this system creates and the fact that 1 downvote can not only wipe out the will of many, but essentially limit the exposure of the content that scares away many.

An equivalent is a Twitter or Facebook shadowban, which is viewed by many to be the same difference as a collapsed post or comment(I've never seen such a post trend, have you?). If this type of post scares off potential users, then it's because they don't agree with the reality.

I'm on many blockchain platforms populated mostly by those who don't like steem or hive specifically because of what I mention in the 1st paragraph. That's a lot of ex, but mostly potential users that have been lost, because the same web2 crap happens here, just in a slightly different way.

Instead of accepting this, we as one of the first cutting edge Web3 platforms should be trying to find a solution to the problem. Unfortunately, those who benefit most, like yourself and the other ideological downvoters, tend to see everything as just fine.

The fact is, it's no different than the US Congress continuing to work for themselves, instead of the people. Perceived or not by those who can institute solutions, like yourself, it affects more users than you know. This in effect affects the growth of the platform.

davidosas 3 years ago

Good one

0.00 VYB

frankbacon 3 years ago

HIVE!D

Screen Shot 2022-01-03 at 2.36.44 PM.png

Just had a Conversation with @adamkokesh regarding an Assembly...

0.00 VYB

nathanmars 3 years ago

TONS of other means to stabilize HBD

Please make a DAO proposal for alternative way and I will support if it’s a better solution for stabilising HBD with long term vision

Posted Using LeoFinance ^Beta

1.46 VYB

8 votes

informationwar 3 years ago

I wrote a comment in this thread but don't want to copy/paste spam it. Would love to see a critique of it :)

0.03 VYB

ecoinstant 3 years ago

I have a proposal written, lets dm.

0.03 VYB

nathanmars 3 years ago

Let's do this.

If you need any help before you publish the proposal the please let me know.

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

I don't know what the best solution is, but we were discussing a bunch on discord yesterday. One big (and easy thing) would be for witnesses to add the HE/BXT liquidity pool(s) for HBD to their price feed, instead of just taking in prices from external exchanges.

1.08 VYB

7 votes

stayten 3 years ago

I smell DejaVu. Do you smell it, too?!

wesphilbin 3 years ago

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Seems like some inside joke, or at least inside information, that the rest of us aren't privy to; care to share?

dynamichivers 3 years ago

Like I was telling you I remember something like this happening before. Pretty sure same thing has been happening for many years.

nathanmars 3 years ago

Let’s keep the discussions going my man. We can even ask Vitalik for suggestions because he always talks positively about Hive community.

0.58 VYB

informationwar 3 years ago

Especially now that Justin Sun has left Tron/Steem/BitTorrent to now be an ambassador for Grenada(LOL).

Vitalik might like to talk about how Steem has been abandoned and ideas for Hive. Would be a great discussion if someone could get him to talk about it, put on the pressure!!!

0.05 VYB

nathanmars 3 years ago

@aggroed is probably the best person to start the Hive discussion with Vitalik.

Posted Using LeoFinance ^Beta

0.00 VYB

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

We can even ask Vitalik for suggestions

Well that seems like a great idea!

Seems like there are lots of possible angles to take for a pegged currency, many of which can be applied together, so it seems like the lowest impact, most systematic/algorithmic, most transparent approaches would be the best, to me at least.

@stayten brought up the lack of a HBD:DAI Liquidity Pool, and that got me pondering on those in general, and how good an LP can be at stabilizing prices. After asking more questions, and more discussion happening, the thought that I finally came to was:

At which point we realized nobody knew if the prices from LPs even affect any price feeds, so I went a-searching for those answers, to find:

So, it seems like getting CMC & CG to pull price info from the LPs would be huge, since then we have some actual power over that price, in-ecosystem.

Currently, the outside world's price for HBD is based purely on centralized exchanges.

I'm not sure how to check if witnesses are integrating the LP prices, without asking them all individually.

1.03 VYB

7 votes

smooth 3 years ago

I'd be perfectly happy to include DEX prices in my feed if there is a simple API I can use to get those prices.

One thing to understand, though, is that the price feed is the price of HIVE, not HBD.

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

One thing to understand, though, is that the price feed is the price of HIVE, not HBD.

That's kind of what I thought, but not what I was getting in that Discord conversation.

So, the only thing we can really do on-chain (side-chain) is to get CMC/CG to take in the LP price?

I'd be perfectly happy to include DEX prices in my feed if there is a simple API I can use to get those prices.

If there isn't such a thing, it seems like something that would be great to have, eh @aggroed?

0.00 VYB

smooth 3 years ago

So, the only thing we can really do on-chain (side-chain) is to get CMC/CG to take in the LP price?

No, the price feed isn't tied to those sites. Some witnesses may use it, others don't. I don't, I get it directly from the exchanges.

0.19 VYB

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

No, the price feed isn't tied to those sites. Some witnesses may use it, others don't. I don't, I get it directly from the exchanges.

Sorry, I meant that we could do on-chain, that would directly affect the price of HBD out in the rest of the world (like on CMC/CG, where people go to check prices & charts)

0.00 VYB

leprechaun 3 years ago

You can cheaply give this more visibility on Proof of Brain.blog via its promotion mechanism.

In my opinion, the HBD stablizer works too well if I have to complain. If this stablizer was unplugged tomorrow, I'd be wating for conversion opportunities which would make me profit and at the same time put pressure of the HBD up or down should it stay too low or too high. Although you can also take losses with this mechanism, the mechanism by itself and those that want to gamble with Hive and HBD should drive the HBD to $1.00 USD. The HBD stablizer centralizes this to the DAO account.

At ProofofBrain.blog we welcome contrarian views.

0.43 VYB

blocktrades 3 years ago

HBD has been 2-5% below the peg for the past 24 hours and traders could profit from this if they were willing to wait out the 3.5 day conversion. But a lot of Hive investors don't want to try to profit in this range (especially because these drops below the peg tend to happen when crypto itself is dropping, and they are therefore looking to profit from an expected rebound in crypto pricing).

The stabilizer, by contrast, is operated a little less emotionally (it is programmed to not have expectations about the future price performance of BTC/ETH etc) and it assigns an additional virtue to maintenance of the peg price, so it keeps operating in tight ranges around the peg, where most HBD traders just don't seem willing to play as much. If the psychology of those traders changes in the future, the stabilizer functionality will become less important (although it will still have an extra advantage when HBD is just a little ABOVE the peg in the 1.01-1.05 range, because of the burn fee traders have to pay for conversions in that direction).

0.00 VYB

leprechaun 3 years ago

Now, there is a good reason for this. I do like to see HBD stable (and that's also emotional), but not by trading my funds at a consistent loss. If the stablizer always needs new money going into it, then it doesn't make a good case for me to adopt its trading strategy.

0.00 VYB

blocktrades 3 years ago

It doesn't tend to lose money, it tends to make money with its strategy. But it's just less greedy than the average crypto trader: it is satisfied with a percent or two gain on a regular basis, whereas the majority of crypto traders only want to invest in big potential wins and prefer to trust their intuition for future price direction instead of investing in contrarian plays that rely on stochastic changes to profit (basically the same reason most traders prefer to guess future market prices instead of being market makers).

0.00 VYB

leprechaun 3 years ago

It must be a complex algorithm.

0.00 VYB

article61 3 years ago

Think it’s clear that hive is controlled by those with the highest stake and maybe what you show here is a form of gaming the system/rewards pool. I’ve not enough knowledge or understanding to say either way. Personally I’ve nothing against those who’ve invested heavily having a bigger say than someone like me but recently there’s been a lot of hypocrisy and disingenuous reasoning. Be nice to see some honesty instead of pretending it’s fair and decentralised.

Hive is ran by people and people are inherently flawed by greed and ego, therefore it will never be perfect.

Found it quite amusing to read a post bemoaning how the author had been pestered by a down voter for reasons of revenge. Strangely, this particular author avoided all the usual verbal abuse and downvotes from the usually outspoken whales, folk who quite often say they will downvote “any” post that moans about this subject. Ironically, this post was massively over rewarded (IMO).

One rule for you, one rule for their mates.

1.47 VYB

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Think it’s clear that hive is controlled by those with the highest stake and maybe what you show here is a form of gaming the system/rewards pool. I’ve not enough knowledge or understanding to say either way.

That's exactly why I'm bringing it to light, so it can be discussed, debated, explained, and even if nothing changes, at least a lot more people will know what's going on.

Personally I’ve nothing against those who’ve invested heavily having a bigger say than someone like me but recently there’s been a lot of hypocrisy and disingenuous reasoning. Be nice to see some honesty instead of pretending it’s fair and decentralized.

This is exactly the reason I keep making posts to shine light on various parts of this. I don't have a problem with a system designed around stake-is-all being run by the handful of folks who hold most of the stake... but stop pretending like 20 witnesses, held in place by 10 voters, is somehow "decentralized."

Hive is ran by people and people are inherently flawed by greed and ego, therefore it will never be perfect.

Very true; and one of the things that really got me hooked originally was the way that @dan talked about creating systems to better incentivize positive behavior, to disincentivize harmful behavior, etc. Since we know who will be playing the game (humans), it makes sense to design accordingly, so we don't end up with another system that rewards those who act like psychopaths, even if they're not.

Found it quite amusing to read a post bemoaning how the author had been pestered by a down voter for reasons of revenge. Strangely, this particular author avoided all the usual verbal abuse and downvotes from the usually outspoken whales, folk who quite often say they will downvote “any” post that moans about this subject. Ironically, this post was massively over rewarded (IMO).

Ya, I was waiting for @smooth to come in and zero that post out, since he has a zero tolerance policy for posts discussing down-votes getting rewarded...

One rule for you, one rule for their mates.

Same reason every politician only wears a mask when they're on camera.

smooth 3 years ago

Ya, I was waiting for @smooth to come in and zero that post out, since he has a zero tolerance policy for posts discussing down-votes getting rewarded...

I don't think I saw it.

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blocktrades 3 years ago

One rule for you, one rule for their mates.

Speaking of which, I just noticed this today: https://hive.blog/hive-167922/@tarazkp/funkers-and-funders

The interesting part is that @kennyskitchen, the great champion against downvoting, seems to be the one that downvoted the post (presumably for criticizing his behavior). The part that is probably not obvious is that the huge downvote is from tribesteemup, but it is an account he controls.

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nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

Well I could point this out as well:

Screenshot (5).png

But doing that certainly won't help get me unmuted around here so I better just keep it to myself and not make a scene. I mean, why should I mention how those comments weren't under his post, I wasn't talking to him, and none were even set to earn. Where will that get me? Nowhere.

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Why would I ever un-mute you?

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nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

So when you talk to me, you don't have to click that annoying reveal button. It's a huge time saver. Plus then it's not like opening a mystery box. But sometimes, presents are nice.

Also, when you mute someone, all you're doing is making everyone even more curious, so they click to see what was said. In other words, if it's your goal to silence me, you'd be better off not muting me.

I don't hold any of this against you though. I just think it's funny. If I frustrate you, well, shit. Nothing I can do about that. I'm a bit rough around the edges or whatever. It's not unusual for people to not like me, at first. Someday dude, we're gonna be BFF! Isn't this exciting!

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kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Speaking of which, I just noticed this today: https://hive.blog/hive-167922/@tarazkp/funkers-and-funders

The interesting part is that @kennyskitchen, the great champion against downvoting, seems to be the one that downvoted the post (presumably for criticizing his behavior).

Yes, I did down-vote that libelous post.

If you "whales" get to zero out every post you don't like, I certainly get to throw a downvote (not nearly zero-ing) on a massively over-rewarded piece full of lies about me.

It's hilarious that the only thing any of you can try to hold against me is when I do things similar to what y'all are doing, but on a much smaller scale.

I don't have a problem with the concept of downvoting, especially against spam, libel, plagiarism, not-labeled-NSFW posts, etc.

The part that is probably not obvious is that the huge downvote is from tribesteemup, but it is an account he controls.

I run tribesteemup, everyone knows that. It has been 100% transparent literally the whole time that the account has existed. Nice try though.

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blocktrades 3 years ago

I run tribesteemup, everyone knows that. It has been 100% transparent literally the whole time that the account has existed. Nice try though.

Are you silly enough to think that every random Hive user knows that you operate the tribesteemup account? You have a seriously inflated sense of your own importance. For example, I've operated the alpha account as my personal account for years, but plenty of people don't know that, despite me being very public about it.

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kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Are you silly enough to think that every random Hive user knows that you operate the tribesteemup account?

No, but it's obvious to everyone who is familiar with either account, and by a quick glance at the @tribesteemup account.

You have a seriously inflated sense of your own importance.

No, you're just trying to act like I was being "sneaky" about something.

For example, I've operated the alpha account as my personal account for years, but plenty of people don't know that, despite me being very public about it.

I didn't know that - so you're blocktrades, @blocktrades.com, and @alpha huh?

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blocktrades 3 years ago

No, you're just trying to act like I was being "sneaky" about something.

No, I was simply providing enough info to the person I was responding to so that they would understand my point. Odds are strong they didn't know you owned that account, in which case my comment would have just confused them.

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article61 3 years ago

I can only control my own actions, nobody else's. I’ve said this before, that this all needs to stop as it’s like a playground argument. If everyone would just stick to downvotes being used to control plagiarism and fraud there wouldn’t be a problem. Instead we now have a ridiculous flag war and petty name calling. As for me, I’ve read many comments from people on both sides. Acidyo raised some good points which actually made me reflect on what I bring to the table as an author. Is my content original? Am I just parroting what’s already out there? Quite valid points that I have to agree with to some extent. Unfortunately the only other person I’ve spoken to and asked for reasoning came back with absolute arrogance and a huge amount of ego. There is a circle jerk amongst many hive profiles that appear on the trending page, that’s quite indisputable. Saying that, is there really anything wrong with constantly upvoting your friends without assessing the content of there post? I’d say the answer is no, unless you're downvoting others for the content of their posts.
I’m very aware and appreciative of what hive offers to me but that doesn’t mean I have to be a good little boy and remain silent when there is obviously bullying going on. It’s obvious people on here don’t agree on covid, conspiracy theories, vaccinations etc etc, but that doesn’t mean one is right and one is wrong, absolutely. At that point there should be debate in the comments section, not downvotes. Downvotes should be for the reasons we all believed they were intended for. If not we end up back in the playground.

nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

Who are the people in the 'circle jerk'?

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article61 3 years ago

I’m not getting into naming individuals. Go check out the trending page and you’ll see plenty of posts that have massive rewards for very little effort or imagination. Like I said, I’ve nothing against circle jerks, it’s natural to want to support your friends. I just find it hypocritical when people bemoan others getting over rewarded.

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nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

'Social Circles' would be a natural occurrence on a 'Social Network', yes. The over rewarded concept confuses me at times as well. And I can agree sometimes it appears very little effort is being rewarded heavily. In a sense, those posts you're mentioning indirectly would be the over rewarded content. But then someone else might look and want to add more. With so many minds involved, I try to not letter bother my mind.

I didn't mean to put you on the spot. In the early days on Steem there was a prominent 'circle jerk' sticking out like a sore thumb. When I look at trending these days, I see a variety of support circles pushing a variety of content up. Compared to the old days, I'd say it's a least a little more organic these days.

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article61 3 years ago

“Social circle”, I like that turn of phrase and it’s more appropriate. The whole issue with over rewarded posts is something that I try not to focus on or get involved in. It’s a positive problem to have and I do agree with you completely when you talk about many minds. For me, it’s the negative edge of this sword which bothers me. The ones in a position to offer such great rewards do so as they see fit and that’s great for those in receipt. Sometimes I think these votes are deserved and sometimes I don’t, but I’d never downvote a post because it wasn’t to my personal liking. Who am I to cancel out other peoples opinions/votes? And if it’s a post about a subject I strongly disagree with then I’ll leave a comment.

Sadly, we seem to have come to a point where certain people are abusing the power they have. They now make the decision on whether a certain subject or author is to be rewarded, solely based on their own opinion or ideology and that really stinks. Fuck! have an argument. Call someone a cunt if you really disagree, just don’t cancel out the authors supporters. They have every right to support whatever post they like and see that author rewarded. My point is that it’s one persons opinion against another’s and both sides have the right to voice those opinion. Things cross the line when one persons opinion has the power to cancel out those who support that author and remove the rewards they saw fit to offer.
By far the worst effect of all this is that good authors who post interesting content(IMO) now spend their time writing about being downvoted.

Anyway, I think I’m beginning to ramble on so I’ll leave it there.

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nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

My work is mainly entertainment based. I'd hope people support it only because they like it, or me, because that's how this business works. Art and jokes at times can be confusing for some. It would be incredibly awkward to get downvoted because someone didn't get a joke, for instance. That's more on them, than me. An artist knows in advance, whatever is created then put on display, the people who won't like it or take no interest at all far outnumber those who will. I've had a good run here. The people are awesome and I adore many. The only flak I've received comes from folks who only looked at the rewards. Then judge me for something I had nothing to do with. Set the goal to do well and create something people might enjoy, but there's no way of knowing in advance if they will or not. For instance when writing humor, you don't truly know is something is actually funny, until you get the reaction. So you either entertain, or completely bomb and feel humiliated. Yet do it all again...

Content of political nature, by design, is meant to impress half and piss off the other half. Then once one half is totally pissed, then they sit around being pissed off all the time, feeding off one another. Spirals downwards. By design. People fight.

I've been downvoted heavily before. Wrote a couple posts on the topic and happenings. The outcome was typically quite civil. No real fighting. No dwelling. No blaming everything and everyone. No demands. No constant barrage of posts insulting anyone. The one who was downvoting me (big downvotes) actually came along, left me a joke, and the downvoting stopped on the same day.

So yeah lately I've been seeing a lot of sensationalism, gaslighting, finger pointing, arguments etc. A lot division created, enforced and maintained. A post like this above I see as just a big show; a spectacle. It doesn't exist to actually solve the problems.

There's a lot of people out there having fun as well. They far outnumber those experiencing drama and maintaining it. Those mixed up with the drama don't really know about that world, out there. That's natural for social circles though. People become products of their environment. I personally like to be involved or at least informed so I'm all over the place silently observing or offering my two cents. I just wonder where this crowd was back in the day when what's presented above was discussed, explained, argued, and so on. But again, that's a natural effect of social circles. People keep to themselves but suddenly there's a problem so they step outside their comfort zone only to discover an incredibly confusing new world.

Oh shit. I'm rambling too.

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Show 1 more reply

nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

I have something to add, respectfully.

I think it's worth mentioning why those "spam comments" as they've come to be known appear to be hidden away. On the surface that might lead an individual to believe this was being swept under the rug but that's not the case.

Originally, when this 'project' began, those involved would post this same 'spam comment', then upvote it, and that 'spam comment' would be positioned high up on trending. When it was announced, the announcement post was 'trending'. Many people knew this was going on, because it was plastered all over the trending page, constantly. Many people were not happy with these 'spam comments', 'trending', several times per day, knocking down instances of actual content, and making the trending page look like, "crap."

So a bunch of us back then either complained or downvoted these posts. I was one of the 'complainers' if I remember correctly.

Eventually they decided to use the comment section rather than posting it directly to the trending page and taking away potential visibility from actual content creators. It wasn't 'hidden' from anyone. It was done this way so it would not interfere with those hard working fun loving creators of glorious content.

On the surface, to the untrained eye, this can look ugly.

But...

^{And of course it appears I'm muted and not allowed to be part of a community discussion. And since nobody can see, I guess it doesn't matter now that I forgot to wear pants.}

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smooth 3 years ago

Yes that is exactly what happened.

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nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

I know. Can say it confidently. No point in BSing on a blockchain...

tarazkp 3 years ago

And of course it appears I'm muted and not allowed to be part of a community discussion. And since nobody can see, I guess it doesn't matter now that I forgot to wear pants.

I see you....

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nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

Yeah. But do you have to stare at it?

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themarkymark 3 years ago

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nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

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tarazkp 3 years ago

I am trying, but I can't stop.

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nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

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acidyo 3 years ago

The biased curation he does with the tribe account in this comment section is hilarious, anyone even slightly saying something positive about his post gets a big upvote to hide all the others who are calling out his lunacy.

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nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

I think it's safe to say plenty of individual minds following this chaos have been able to detect much fuckery.

They say, "When you point one finger, don't forget about the three pointing back at yourself."

Someone forgot...

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themarkymark 3 years ago

First off, it looks like the reward pool has been more like 51K/day lately.

Second off, you act as though someone is putting this in their pocket. This benefits Hive, not any specific person. In fact, it has a large impact on the current price of Hive which is many times higher than it was when this started. Hive has also be extremely stable, in fact it has been better than many tokens.

Granted it is ugly, but it is effective.

I also believe the reward pool is larger than what we need for the current user base and quality of content. Many times I have a hard time finding anything to vote and putting it into the DHF is a better option. It is much easier to vote when you have a small amount of stake, but when your vote is $200+, it becomes far more time consuming and difficult to distribute that stake well.

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

First off, it looks like the reward pool has been more like 51K/day lately.

So at the moment, it's on the HIGH end, with hbd.funder taking in 10-15 of the 51 (20-30%), correct?

Second off, you act as though someone is putting this in their pocket.

Through the curation rewards, 50% of this is going directly into people's pockets.

Granted it is ugly, but it is effective.

I certainly agree. Especially when some of these same folks are zeroing out content creators for political reasons, calling it "rewards disagreements," then dropping $300-600 upvotes on literal spam.

I also believe the reward pool is larger than what we need for the current user base and quality of content. Many times I have a hard time finding anything to vote and putting it into the DHF is a better option. It is much easier to vote when you have a small amount of stake, but when your vote is $200+, it becomes far more time consuming and difficult to distribute that stake well.

What a simple, practical argument for much more decentralization of stake! Why not delegate yours out to any of the dozens of communities getting by with a couple thousand HP? That's always been my model personally, to simply delegate out the earned HP - because james' delegation is more than enough for anybody to have the keys to.

7 votes

themarkymark 3 years ago

So at the moment, it's on the HIGH end, with hbd.funder taking in 10-15 of the 51 (20-30%), correct?

I haven’t kept track of hbdfunder rewards.

Through the curation rewards, 50% of this is going directly into people's pockets.

Yes the same rewards they would get for voting anything else. Net zero change.

I certainly agree. Especially when some of these same folks are zeroing out content creators for political reasons, calling it "rewards disagreements," then dropping $300-600 upvotes on literal spam.

In your example someone was benefiting in this no one is.

What a simple, practical argument for much more decentralization of stake! Why not delegate yours out to any of the dozens of communities getting by with a couple thousand HP? That's always been my model personally, to simply delegate out the earned HP - because james' delegation is more than enough for anybody to have the keys to.

Not sure how you get that. My stake is spread out to almost 300 unique authors a week. More so than most anyone. I don’t delegate out my stake, I prefer to use my influence how I please.

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

I haven’t kept track of hbdfunder rewards.

I have a spreadsheed with all of them, since it started commenting - that's where the charts came from.

Yes the same rewards they would get for voting anything else. Net zero change.

Without the benefit of 50% of that being distributed to creators - as you mention you are doing with yours quite well.

Not sure how you get that.

You were describing how much harder and more time consuming it is to vote with a $200 vote. So don't. Seems like having that much centralization of stake is having a negative impact on your experience... that's what I was getting at, from your comment.

smooth 3 years ago

Without the benefit of 50% of that being distributed to creators

As has been explained to you many times, the benefit of that 50% is being distributed to HBD stabilizer and then to DHF, where it then goes to developers, marketers, those operating infrastructure, etc.

You may thing it would be better to go to creators, while others think it is better going to HBD stabilizer and DHF for developers, marketers, etc. Stakeholders get to vote on this.

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

You may thing it would be better to go to creators, while others think it is better going to HBD stabilizer and DHF for developers, marketers, etc. Stakeholders get to vote on this.

They certainly do. And by bringing this activity into the light (less than 5 people I've talked to had any idea about this activity) it helps ALL stakeholders make more informed decisions. Just like seeing how pharesim/curangel/azircon are systematically nuking users for purely political reasons, or how acidyo/OCDB likes to publish libel about people on the chain.

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nonameslefttouse 3 years ago

(less than 5 people I've talked to had any idea about this activity)

And maybe in the future your social circle can start paying a little more attention to the happenings on chain. In my comment that you have conveniently muted, I explained, whether people were for it or against it, this was no secret. That says a lot about how far disconnected from this place you folks are if less than five knew. That needs to improve. If people aren't truly fully informing themselves around here, like so many others, how are they even in a position to comment...

Pay attention.

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kennyskitchen 3 years ago

That says a lot about how far disconnected from this place you folks are if less than five knew.

No, it points to the issue that others have brought up here as well. Hive is obscure, too technical for most, not well documented, and designed to make information harder and harder to find the older it is.

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Show 1 more reply

themarkymark 3 years ago

You were describing how much harder and more time consuming it is to vote with a $200 vote. So don't. Seems like having that much centralization of stake is having a negative impact on your experience... that's what I was getting at, from your comment.

Of course it is, I'd rather just collect 100% of my stake and do nothing to get it while sitting on the beach. I try to use my stake that helps as many people who I feel I putting in effort. I vote everyone the same 10% without favorites.

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

Of course it is, I'd rather just collect 100% of my stake and do nothing to get it while sitting on the beach.

Right. I'm not actually trying to say you "should" do this or that, was just leaning into your comment to make a point about how a much more decentralized Hive would be better for everyone.

I try to use my stake that helps as many people who I feel I putting in effort. I vote everyone the same 10% without favorites.

I can definitely appreciate that, and I don't recall a time that I've had issues with you, your curation etc. Thanks for doing what you can for the community!

dynamichivers 3 years ago

Well, hopefully this stops the indiscriminate flags as they all make 100% no sense now. I mean I am all about game theory. The community needs to come together and vote on proposals to fix this gamification on our system while content that is anti centralization is being flagged. It is all about community imo so if the community wants this to go on than that would be sucky. seems @spknetwork can help solve these issues but not fully.

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9 votes

kennyskitchen 3 years ago

And then the post gets zero'd - even though rewards were 100% burnt.

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informationwar 3 years ago

I've had a few explanations that I didn't agree with.

Apparently there is some sort of daily fund of 67,000 HBD being rewarded to the hbdfunder thing already, the comments were serving as extra funds to help stablize Hive.

I asked the question "why not just increase the daily fund proposal from 67k to 77k then?", and didn't get a response that satisfied me.

I've said throughout the years, we don't even need a stable coin on here for anything really. Something could be implemented where it just re-uses DAI or some other things that are already real stable coins with algorithms and market pressures/forces.

I don't think HBD is going away though, as nobody thinks it should who holds power.

Hive proposals could just be paid out in Hive, HBD isn't needed to do that. The argument I got against that is "Hive flucuates in price so a long term funded project might get too much or not enough", then they should get all the funding up front(like most projects do) instead of daily payouts and they should then sell that Hive on the market. Only allow a certain number of Hive proposals to be filled per week, so there isn't something crazy like 2 million Hive is minted in 1 week and other weeks mint out 200k.

If the total Hive proposal fund per year is say 50 million USD worth of Hive, then each week a max of 1 million can be used. A simple system that pushes people's funding from week to week could be made.

If someone requests 3 million in funding it will have a 3 week lead time before they get it. If 10 people each request 150k, then the people with the most vote backing will get it in week 1, the rest will carry over into week 2.

Like, I don't think I'm any kind of genius here, but I just solved this entire DHF proposal system within 15 minutes of thinking about it.

It's pretty easy to solve this issue as it has already been solved by many other real stablecoins, and for some reason people want a native stable coin on Hive.

13 votes

nathen007 3 years ago

I want a stable coin because my main reason for having any involvement in the crypto space is for it be a genuine alternative to Fiat before surpassing it and us having a global, decentralised and tokenised method of exchange for goods and services.

To most, crypto is simply wealth generation and a token to use to trade, thus affecting the price through simple supply and demand before turning profits into Fiat...when used that way it's no more than another contrived, Fiat based financial implement.

By having stable coins, we have useable Fiat alternatives without ridiculous fluctuations around which exchange and payment systems can be built.

Sadly, most people have no idea of the finer details of how any of this works so that leaves us needing to trust those that do.

Because of HBDs stability, we are already capable of paying out a whopping 12% interest on savings, that couldn't happen if it was not able to know exactly how much 12% was in real terms.

I honestly don't know what the best way to maintain the $1 peg, but in recent times, it's been held nicely and this is absolutely what's needed to be able to achieve my long term goals for crypto.

informationwar 3 years ago

Yes, but HBD isn't needed in order for there to be a useable stablecoin.

The Internal Market only has one trading pair, HBD/HIVE. That isn't needed. There are already many ways of trading on a Dex or Swapping. Back then we didn't have that unless you did a centralized exchange.

I use Stablecoins all the time to the tune of tens of thousands per year, they are very useful.

smooth 3 years ago

There is currently no way to implement a truly decentralized exchange for HIVE apart from the internal market. Someone always has to custody the HIVE, which is centralized.

At some point maybe there will be a powerful enough smart contract system implemented on HIVE to make this possible, or maybe someone will figure out a clever method to do it another way, but for now, that's all we have.