My final few words and thoughts on communities on Hive

in #hive3 years ago

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Yesterday i wrote a post reaching out to everyone including our witnesses to try to gauge our general feelings toward communities on Hive. The main question was whether communities add value to Hive. I asked this question because i had noticed that there seems to be very little support in terms of delegation to most community leaders despite them spending a whole lot of time bringing people together and generally doing what they can to make Hive an even better experience and place to be. I have personally run the ecoTrain community for 4+ years now, but due to the community growing and having so much activity it has become quite hard for me to manage it all.. It is pretty much a full time job with very little recognition, and that is why i wanted to see what we all thought about communities in general, if they are valued.. and then from that decide if i am using my time well, or perhaps should think about giving up.

I must say i was a little surprised to see SO few comments from everyone.. its hard to really understand why that it so, except to say that most of us are very busy here and probably don’t want to start engaging on a topic that has many layers to it.. and many things that we may want to say cannot really be said publicly. Therefore i would like to leave a few last thoughts in point form because i think each of these points is quite important and who knows, maybe will be spotted and help in some way.

  1. I think its fair to say, but i cannot be sure due to lack of communication with me, that the entire blogging side of Hive is considered to be somewhat of an Achilles heel of the blockchain. It takes a heck of a lot of work to curate, comment, engage. It is also a bit of a minefield to ensure that posts are unique, not plagiarised, and of high quality. Its probably also fair to say that many people consider most of the posts here to be of not much interest.. hence the term 'shit post' has evolved and been used to describe posts that we personally don’t value. I would like to point out that the most popular social network YouTube consists mainly of 'shit posts', as exemplified by the incredible number of views on some of the most boring looking and mundane videos imaginable.. That is just my point of view though, and the reality is that the great majority of people who use YouTUbe LOVE shit posts! They love to see travel blogs, cats and dogs doing silly things, and many other very mundane things. Bottom line is its all about views, and You Tube has not tried to dictate what is valued or not, it has just honoured those videos that get views!

    So what i am saying here is that those people who have put all their hopes and dreams of Hive becoming something much bigger and popular due to some new system, game or other developments may be waiting in vein and missing the proverbial 'elephant in the room' as i put it last time.. which is that the blogging side of this place may well still have legs far beyond what you imagine. Let me ask you this.. If one or two big influencers came to this place, people with millions of views, would that suddenly change the way you feel about the blogging side of Hive? If we saw millions of people suddenly show up as a result, would we then suddenly start harping on about how amazing the blogging side of hive is etc.? i can see that happening one day, especially as more influencers are feeling the pinch to their ability to speak freely.

  2. I would like to ask @smooth what he thinks about this idea.. I can appreciate if the answer is NO, that is not possible or a good idea, but i would like to just put it out there, and if nothing else understand why it is not a good idea. This proposition relates to the @hive.fund account, which currently sits on a rather large amount of liquid Hive and HBD.. to be used to support new projects that could take Hive in any number of directions and hopefully to the next level. I would imagine that ALL of these funds are not going to be donated to new projects any time soon, and that most of it will just sit there doing nothing and slowly distributed until a really amazing project turns up that can use a significant amount of it. SO what i would like to propse is what you think about powering up 10% of this liquid Hive and delegating it to some community leaders. I can see many positives coming from this, not least is helping to decentralise this very large pool of Hive into some good hands that will continue to curate and spread it out to the smallest wallets whilst building up our own community accounts so we can become a bit more self sufficient without even needing to rely on delegations. Then we can reward our communities with bigger up votes. That is a big part of why Hive and its predecessor Steem was created and i think it's a very good use of those funds. What have you got to loose? The delegations are not spent and can be easily withdrawn and used to support projects as and when they arise.
  3. I would like to finish by saying that in my opinion, community is the most important thing to a successful ecosystem.. It is fostered by interaction, connecting, and by having leaders who set a good example and also inspire and support others. I have seen that to be very much the case for @ecoTrain, and i could name many people who I have supported or brought here who have gone on to be very active and valued. One of these people has gone on to invest many many tens of thousands of dollars in this place, and is now one of the top players on Splinterlands. My point here is that community is not only SO important, but can and does have many unseen and often significant side affects. I believe that great things happen when we bring people together, and i personally think that we should do more to support those people who foster it.

I could go on im sure, but i think those are the most important points to me. I will now have to consider whether i would like to continue running the ecoTrain community or to pull this train to a halt and hang my hat up. It does seem a bit of shame to me that the main reason for doing so is not because the community is not successful, but because it is so successful and active that i can no longer keep up with it on my own without sacrificing way too much time with very little coming back to compensate for the very real opportunity costs of what i would be doing instead. Without the support and backup from the ecosystem as a whole, it is an endeavour that may just not be viable any longer.

It is clear that i made a mistake assuming that running a community here would lead to more support and delegation. Maybe people view me and indeed other community leaders in the wrong way, that is to say people who are really looking out for themselves and just trying to get power and make money. I think that is a misconception and very untrue for many if not most community leaders here. Yes, I will be happy to make some more Hive and generate some more abundance, but that is far from my main mission .. and there are many ways to make much more money far more easily! I am not sure yet if i will stop working on the ecoTrain community because after nearly 5 years it is hard to imagine not leading the QOTW, or curating it. Nevertheless maybe it is time! I have no regrets about what i have done so far, it has been amazing, and the community has been amazing.. i just wish i was able to generate more strength for the @ecoTrain account after so many years of service.

Anyway, if you made it this far, thank you for listening.. and please do drop a comment.. im so interested to hear other peoples opinions on this whatever they may be.

 

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I read both posts, the one yesterday and this one. If I had lots of HP to delegate to various communities I would. That's part of the reason I want to grow my account, to create very mutually beneficial relationships.

thats nice to hear! thanks for letting me know... yes mutually beneficial relationships are really special i agree!

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I hear what you are saying. It’s unfortunate that fine, decent efforts on Hive go unnoticed and didn’t get the support they deserved. But, that is Hive. There are posts that are well thought out earning a couple of cents. Then there are shit posts that made tens of dollars.

Your efforts are commendable and it’s a fact that it takes a huge amount of time and effort to create and curate a community. You deserve all the support you can get. Unfortunately, I am just the village idiot who doesn’t know his right foot from his left. So, I am in no position to offer any worthy suggestions. Maybe, one of the powers that be who read your post can be of more help.

As in Life, sometimes it is not what you know or what you do – it’s who you know. Best wishes.

thanks my friend.. its OK i think by now i can read between the lines and in many ways the writing is on the wall.. the silence speaks volumes!

communities are not valued
and i think since i am considered niche by many people we are not really given much support.. EVEN though i would say 3,500 subscribers and around 300 interactions shows that the issues i support are no longer really niche at all!..

Just continue doing what you enjoy, and let nature takes its course.
Have a great weekend.

solid advice! x

👍😊

I just feel that Communities make life much easier here. I remember when I joined for the first 3 to 4 months none of my posts were being seen and it was such a struggle to become visible. Communities have helped me grow and I support them fully. But yes, communities need a lot of support to sustain and also to function successfully.
@ecoTrain has grown substantially in the last 1 year, the QOTW receives some amazing responses, and with that I feel it is time you put a structure to it creating a moderator team, who can help with the curation and other activities. Being a part of the community is also about taking up responsibility. A clear role defined for that and assigned with accountability will help.
I am ready to take up whatever you feel I am capable of.
I would never want this community to go quiet.

thanks for your comment.. AND the offer to help!! so gratefully received and i couldn't ask for a better person to help than you, truly..

i think many people don't realise that i have driven this community all by myself almost none stop for 5 years.. (except for two occasions that didn't end well and a couple of breaks).. .. i never wanted to be doing this alone but for some reason every time i asked for help with in a chat group or in a post it just never came.. it is strange, but it is also a life pattern so im used to it by now..

anyways.,, i am changing my life patterns and maybe this is one pattern that is going to shift! I would be SO happy to have you help curate and comment.. and am also talking with acidyo now who i think is going to support ecoTrain again after some long standing misunderstandings.. so i will give this some thought and come up with some clear structure and roles for people who would like to help me drive this train!

much love <3 xx and thank uuuu

Count me in for whatever u think suitable. Sorry I was just lost in my own things, but I am going to be there for the community

yay! that mes me happy.. im excited to have you as part of the core team.. makes me feel more relaxed already just thinking about it <3 x

I think of communities on hive as just another way to segregate different populations on the Blockchain. Don't get me wrong, if I want to search for a particular type of content, it's much easier to do today than in 2018.. but that's not really saying much. Also, with the lead content creators/whales having their own communities, we continue to see the "merry go round" of curation dollars between the same users. Whether hive will become a major blogging site or whether another competitor will thrive is anyone's guess (Hive's UI options are severely poor for blogging...).

In this world, it's all about who you know more than what you know.. so maybe there's a chance for the future of Hive in blogging.. we'll see. I think the greater value is the transactions per second on a Blockchain. The DPOS platform will continue to be a large barrier to entry for new users. Nobody wants to pay to play, especially when so many others have a head-start that they didn't have to pay for.. just my thoughts anyway..

thanks for your comment! much appreciated.. i hear you! let is see how this all unfolds.. i hope that witnesses take on board the comments of its users.. as often the users opinions are more important than those who govern...

SO what i would like to propose is what you think about powering up 10% of this liquid Hive and delegating it to some community leaders. I can see many positives coming from this,

No, every hive you get from such an arrangement comes out the pockets of our smallest users.

When whales vote, or delegate, they take from the very people we are trying to attract.
The pool is a commons.
Even if they gave away all that they take in, it would still be a centralization of the pool.

Ganging up to increase rewards is a bad idea, imo.

Build your audience organically like the rest of us have to and stop asking for special favors, eh?
It's a bad look, iyam.

If you want more power flowing to your friends buy more hive.

i dont think you quite understand what i mean.. and i dont really see how powering up that hive and delegating it to many different comunity leaders takes anything from the pockets of any small users.. i think quite the opposite as community leader will be the ones who upvote and decentralise the reward pool to new and other users.. that is actually the point of communities!

Also if it wasn't clear im not speaking about myself only.. this is in reference to all community leaders.. and.. just to say i have been here 5 years and have a wonderful audience that i have built organically.. this whole post is about communities in general..

and i dont really see how powering up that hive and delegating it to many different comunity leaders takes anything from the pockets of any small users..

5 years you've been here and you clearly don't understand how the pool works?

When you slice up a pie, more bigger slices don't equal more pie.
When you take a big slice, with the help of the whales, everybody else's slice gets smaller.
Capisce?

Every vote affects every other vote. Bigger vote, bigger effects.

When whales vote, redfish get pushed below the dust level and get nothing.
Their bigger slice makes the redfish's slice smaller.
One 10k mv vote pushes 10000 1mv votes out of the rewards pool.
Well, not exactly because the 1mv votes push the .1mv votes out of the pool, but you can see the impact on the little guys clearly.

What you are asking for impacts the .1mv votes the most.
They get nothing because you get more.

Whale votes decrease the size of the slices for everybody except those they vote upon.

Please get somebody to do a deep dive for you on how the pool actually works.
Don't take my word for it, dyor.

Hi there.. well i do understand the reward pool, and at least some of the math behind it.. I'm no expert but i am technical and understand at least the foundations of it all pretty well. i Think.. read my comment and lets see what you think?!

I hear what you are saying, and yes your math is quite correct.. but nevertheless i think your 'logic is flawed' because your perspective seems focussed solely on what very small stakeholders votes are worth. (unless im missing something from what you said?).

TO me this a matter of perspective, and not a 'who's right and whos wrong game'. I say 'your logic is flawed' because from my perspective there are gains to the smallest wallet holders that are not taken into consideration in your answer. (again, unless I'm missing something from what you said?).

Whilst it is true that by delegating community holders **will indeed ** add more overall voting to the total daily vote, and thereby reduce the upvote strength of everyone else, and thereby push out totally the smallest votes. If i understand you correctly that is what you were pointing out?

So what i am saying is that there are a few if not many significant benefits of delegating some HP to several community leaders and proceeding as i had posted about. Bear in mind also that most community leaders accounts have very little HP as you consider my points below:

Adding more Hive to everyone's wallets, and in particular (the right) new users is one of the pillars of Hive and is what drives the entire place. Decentralzing that stake is a part of that process, and ideally spread out over more wallets over and above inflation so that there is a continual (if slow) movement of inflation toward more and more people. So, therefore:

  • By delegating to community leaders with (generally) relatively low HP we are decentralising the stake and to people who add value to the system. They add value in many ways, and especially by further decentralising the pool to new users who are adding value to Hive.. lets see by posting and commenting well.

  • The delegation means that these new and tiny accounts quickly build up a wallet of Hive through upvotes (rather than curation rewards). In that way they will gain much more Hive over time as their upvotes and curation rewards build up via community leaders, and their trails.

  • The delegation also means that the stake itself is more decentralised (at least whilsts it being delegated) and its being to put to good use. Good use in this case is exemplified by the size, engagement, and sentiment of their communities.. If we agree that communities have value, and through consent, which is how this place works, we can say these community leaders need to get some HP flowing their way.. because what we do is help get that reward pool distributed very quickly (by upvoting them) to the people who often get missed. Its us that help new users get noticed, and we create and hold space for those people to be discovered and upvoted!

I could go on, but i think you get my point.. Maybe im missing something, but it seems to me your focus on voting is overstated .. and there is a much bigger piece of the pie to be made elsewhere.. and that we vote on the most different people and NEW people.. cheers!

Adding more Hive to everyone's wallets, and in particular (the right) new users is one of the pillars of Hive and is what drives the entire place.

and in particular (the right) new users

Right, in who's opinion?
Why would they get to decide who is worthy?

We have a large enough deficit of supporting free speech already, imo

How is that going to help me, exactly?,
And the other people like me who haven't been favored by the whales in quite some time, if ever?

You do realize you are asking to treat these accounts better than those accounts because reasons, yes?

Would you like to help upvote on behalf of ecoTrain? There is a curating role open just for voting, not commenting.. and you could choose to upvote one or two posts a day and direct where you think our 50,000K HP and trails go.. I would be interested to see which posts you choose!? You can vote for posts outside of the ecoTrain community too if you like, but there's plenty of good posts there as well.

If your interested then we can chat on the discord group which i am just rebooting to get our community team together, and help things grow beyond what one man can hold toGether!

https://discord.gg/tg7sHMcZYt

Right, in who's opinion? Why would they get to decide who is worthy?

as i was saying, its by consent.. if someone is leading a community. it has thousands of people with high engagement.. there is a lot of value coming from that community etc.. the communities that are empowered stand by their own merit as decided by the ecosystem and of course those managing the stake.. who have the ultimate say where their delegation goes.. I would say that its obvious that empowering those who lead communities on a social network would me a good thing and easy to understand who is worthy and why.

not sure how free speech relates to this

hows it going to help you.. i mean theres a long list and i already mentioned the most important ones.. it will give you a MUCH higher chance of getting decent upvotes on your posts and comments.. as well as given visibility in the community,, and potentially curation posts. i have features dozens of new users who were otherwise struggling to get noticed.. and i have also send many hundreds of HBD to them too for their posts..

You do realize you are asking to treat these accounts better than those accounts because reasons, yes?

better? that is a strange word to use.. that is an interpretation and judgement of the facts.. i am saying im asking to reward those accounts with delegation to help the entire ecosystem including you and them .. everyone.. most of the time that community leaders spend here is to help others so empowering them means empowering others too

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I'd like to see the whole new functionality of proposal system, allowing special option for powering-up some funds to chosen account for specific time. Option of giving back part of the curation rewards would additionaly incentivesed voting such proposals.

In general I agree with you, community leaders should be additionally rewarded. I could even imagine special part of inflation diverted there, proportionally to outcomes (userbase, engagement, earnings-some algo to be constructed). Communities have a big potential as high quality sub-reddit type spaces but incentivation needs to be at place for leaders except of satisfaction of doing so.

Thank you for your efforts in this field.

thanks for you comment.. nice to read.. and happy that you see some value from the community leaders out there.. some interesting ideas too.. im not quite technical enough to know if they are at all feasible.. but they sound intersting! <3

I don't know about technical feasibility too. But it's the matter of need in the first place. I believe the current idea is to create layer two tokens and new frontends on the base of the biggest communities and made them semi self-sufficient in that way. However there still is high barrier of entry for such actions and very few examples of succesful implementations. And even these involve highly technical people to be started and maintained.

interesting! maybe 'they' are trying to figure it out!

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It is clear that i made a mistake assuming that running a community here would lead to more support and delegation. Maybe people view me and indeed other community leaders in the wrong way, that is to say people who are really looking out for themselves and just trying to get power and make money. I think that is a misconception and very untrue for many if not most community leaders here.

True, you should have thought about empowering the community account with more power - without which a community is not rewarding. OCD probably had this in mind from the beginning, they have got huge power so they can incentivize the curators as well as good post. And I see that most successful people( in terms of earning more rewards for themselves) on hive are curators of these large accounts - so they earn rewards on their posts and they earn a decent amount for curation - like a full time job. Without all these, curation is a thankless job and I think, it will be fine to pull the train to a halt - I know how much emotion you have but I think, this place does not care about anyone's emotion - it's all power play.

thanks for your comment.. yes, funnily enough when i started ecoTrain that is exactly what we did. I had four or five VIPs as we called them, including me, who bought quite some Steem ( i had around $5,000 USD worth) and between us all we had a fair bit.. and we used that to reward our passengers.. of course back then the upvotes from us all were only worth one or two dollars so it was never really enough to do much at all.. then as the Steem price dumped it became even less!

lets see how it goes.. ive reached out to a few people now to see if we can get a bit of curation help.. that at least would take the pressure off me.. and allow things to continue.