Vybrainium (VYB)! The New Hive Community & Layer 2 Token Is LIVE! No Downvotes Allowed!

in #hive-1503293 years ago

The inventive people of Hive have once again ventured forth to explore the potentials that the blockchain provides with a new layer 2 token that significantly shifts the rules for post rewards. Let's experiment!

As someone who is both a designer and coder who also values personal transformation, I know that experimentation and evolution are absolutely essential to wellbeing and continued success. With this in mind I am always excited to check out the latest layer 2 communities and tokens for Hive as I am clear that it is within this spaces that evolution and improvements to Hive are most likely to take place.

Vybrainium is just such a project, a new token and reward pool for hive, powered by Hive Engine, that rethinks the Hive reward pool for authors and promises to evolve the Proof of Brain algorithm that was originally the key selling point of Steem, Hive's predecessor. Like many Layer 2 tokens on Hive, it currently uses a standard Hive website design (similar to Hive.blog) and shares many other features of Hive's layer 1 tokens too.

The Vyb whitepaper lays out what makes Vyb different. Here is a brief summary of the key points at this time:

  • Vyb does not allow downvotes at all! This will come as great relief to anyone who has experienced being nuked to destruction by large accounts on Hive layer 1 who, for their own reasons, have decided they don't like you or your posts. While downvotes are sold as a solution to spam and reward pool abuses, they can also be used under the guise of these to affect political or personal agendas and soft censorship. The removal of downvotes puts and end to this problem, however, spam and reward pool abuses will need to be tackled in different ways.

  • Community rules will be enforced via a global 'mute' feature, whereby those who go against the rules will simply not be visible in the community's site. Currently, rules include 'no self upvoting' and no circle jerk voting (though I am not clear on how this will be monitored/proven exactly and what will happen when there are disputes).

As the whitepaper describes, Vyb is specifically designed to overcome the problem of centralisation on Hive that has resulted in certain whales causing a serious morale and sentiment problem among significant portions of the community (all while claiming they are 'providing a service' to the community!).

As someone who has seen most of my posts zeroed for many weeks, with no proper explanation given and no attempt to debate or discuss the situation by those involved - I welcome the possibilities that VYB offers Hive and will definitely be making use of it's features.

So head over to the Vybrainium site, sign in with Hive signer as with other Hive sites - and get posting. Your account will be ready for you when you arrive and may contain some VYB tokens that you were airdropped, if you met the criteria for receiving them.

There doesn't appear to be a VYB tribe available in PeakD yet, but you can still post to VYB via PeakD or other sites if you prefer, by using the vyb tag in your posts. So really, you have nothing to lose - just tag your posts with VYB and carry on as usual if you like - to earn VYB tokens effortlessly. However, if you really value free speech and are interested in exploring a new vibe on Hive, then definitely get more involved and meet/greet those on the same wavelength!

Advanced Notice


In addition to Vyb's launch, a few other tools and solutions are en route for Hive users to tackle the downvote situation. Stay tuned for an announcement soon for the new site I am working on which will provide much needed insights into the voting behaviour on Hive Layer 1! I will also be enabling Hive users to more easily counter vote downvotes they disagree with and support those involved directly with great ease.



Wishing you well,
Ura Soul






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I've just logged in. Looks like I did not meet the criteria for an airdrop, alas. But I will be using this as a front end from now on. Thank you for effecting this level for us to engage and earn.

Yeah me neither how did you get an airdrop ?

You are welcome - thanks for exploring and participating!

Awesome stuff, love when people come up with their own paths! I hope that reward abuse will be handled appropriately. I know down votes are shitty for the wrong reasons but hoping that the Vyb community can keep a handle on the users who are on there. There will certainly be bad actors looking to screw things up but hopefully it can go well.

How will people get muted if it’s decentralized? Just curious. That to me means there’s one person will have the power to mute, or will it be a few dozen, or everyone?

To be fair muting is kind of pointless as they can still see all your stuff anyways and vote / downvote you. It just stops you having to at least engage with them and see what they type.

Yeah I know, I’ve muted one person before because of what they were doing and saying on my posts. Doesn’t prevent the down votes so that’s an issue, but not on the Vyb community so it’ll be interesting to see how it all plays out.

I mute anyone I see doing bullying DV’s to others. I don’t want to ever accidentally engage with these people or be drawn into toxic arguments with them.

Layer 2 communities have their own rules and websites. Globally muted accounts in Vyb will not be visible in the vyb website at all and their downvotes won't affect you or be counted - so basically, if people don't abide by Vyb's rules they will be removed and you won't see them again. They'll still appear on other hive sites underneath your posts if they comment, but you can just forget about that if you want.

Ura-soul is correct @ultravioletmag and @cmplxty. When a user gets muted, the mute is tribe-wide. A justification for the mute is reported to the user and the community if it happens.

Hive makes me feel negative when I put too much energy into it, I end up having to take large periods of minimal use and engagement because of how much drama is in on here. I hate it if I get a high up vote as I just wait to see it get targeted and seeing all the drama around the DV’s. Honestly I’m really hoping this project runs then I can just focus on that front end 90 percent of the time. All I want is a platform without all this bullying, repression of free speech and down vote drama and I would really go for it. Thank you for this initiative I hope people support it and it’s a friendly community 💕 we Moan and you guys have done something about it 🙏👍🏻

POB and VYB are definitely friendly communities. VYB is new, though, and I hope it does well.

I don't yet know the details so can't really comment on how the muting will work. Ultimately all software systems are driven by human will and thinking - so we can't ever completely create one where there is no potential for human nefariousness to be involved. At least the intent of creating such a site has a higher ethical standing than the reality being created by short sighted (or worse) whales on Hive layer 1 atm.

I read the white paper and actually got a lot more info on what I was looking for! Best of luck with the community, I might stop by every once in a while!

Hello ura-soul and @cmplxty. I wrote a moderation policy for the VYB community here: Vybrainium Moderation - A Proposal. It's active now and a minor revision will be coming out in about 1-2 weeks.

It should answer your questions related to the application of the mute function. However, I am also available to respond. Have a great day guys.

Thanks! I'll give it a look, appreciate it.

You're very welcome.

Great, thanks! Reblogged. Is there a Discord server for VYB yet? I haven't seen one linked anywhere.

There's no public discord server for VYB yet. I'm not actually sure when we're getting one. Right now, we're completely focused on working out the kinks of the front end, engagement initiatives, and smoothing out policies.

Ok, no problem, just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed it.

See you there :-)

Another 'wrinkle' that hasn't been officially announced yet involves a way VYB will allow accountholders who have already earned a healthy reputation score on Hive can receive VYB rewards without risking any diminishment to their Hive rep score.

A post about those details will be made soon.

Cool, dint notice that one just yet, gonna keep learning about vyb while i check for plagarism on the vyb tag, omg so many new posters T.T

But gotta ask: What about rising the hive rep score?I get the not risk to lose hive rep score, but what about growing it?

Is it coded to be totally neutral and far away from hive score, or it would work only on the positive side but not on negative, like the upvote?

It would be a interesting idea to have it only on one side, considering than the curator is the one that sets who is getting a better score acording to investigations on the account. So would it have a positive impact willout negative or not impact at all?

If you post on VYB and get upvoted there, those upvotes will raise your Hive rep score also.

The issue I was referring to applies to folks who are being consistently downvoted by one or more HIVE whale accounts -- those DVs can destroy their Hive rep fairly quickly. Having a negative Hive rep score will not affect how posts are displayed on the VYB front-end, but it does affect how posts are displayed on most of the other front-ends. As such, protecting your rep score from going negative is considered important by many, and there are only two ways (that I know of) to do that. I will explain those in a future post.

Willout positive score, have a trentding post is almost imposible, basically unless youre 70 getting a 200$ post is as hard as a walk on the moon :S because of the curators.

Beyong that, score is meaningless.

I am launching a stats site that focuses on downvotes and related info in the next few days - it's in testing and bugfixing atm.
I'm interested to know if you have any requests for specific questions you need answered as a curator - let me know and maybe I'll add insights that help.

Basically is easier to be curated the more high your score is, because it shows the curator you're

  1. Trust worty
  2. Human
  3. Non plagariser.

They should check but curations like ocd and the other big whales are not manually checked as hard as it was, in fact i saw a 100$ trending post of a friend from here venezuela, that it was self plagarism, the guy did that same post from steemit, by the time i noticed it was long past payout, so i keeped to myself, but it shows how negligent are curators at times, is hard i know it, as a moderator i see curation is HELL.

But well :S shit happents.

6 of the most downvoted profiles on Hive are in the top 125 highest ranks for reputation

How many upvotes they get? If you are upvoted 5 times as more than dv, there is no way you rep goes negative.

Vyb is gonna make that page obsolette XD

hehe, well, maybe - but I don't know. if it does then it will take a while.

Tier 1 of hive is gonna still be there no matter what :)

your fork?

No, this is a layer 2 token run through Hive Engine, not a fork. VYB is managed by @trostparadox and @scholaris.

this is a layer 2 token run through Hive Engine, not a fork.

That is correct.

Maybe think of VYB as a spoon of POB rather than a fork.

@urun @ura-soul

Ah ok, I had a talk with some POB people in the past about "token transfer" to another tribe or "fork" of it.

I really like it if tribes try something new because if all are the same with only different topics, is uncool.

So I really appreciate new stuff and testing things out :)

GM!

The great strength of tribes is the ability to alter the way that Hive works - but most haven't done that yet, yes. We shall see more variation in time, I am sure.

I'm with you!

Do HIVE posts appear here automatically or do you need to add a #vyb tag?

Hello. You need to add the #vyb tag for your post to appear. Hive posts will not automatically appear.

I think no downvotes is a great idea. It should have been tried a long time ago.


The rewards earned on this comment will go directly to the person sharing the post on Twitter as long as they are registered with @poshtoken. Sign up at https://hiveposh.com.

Do the upvoters have to have vyb power staked in order for their votes to give vyb? I have several votes on a recent post that show up with Hive rewards but no vyb yet.
Also, is there any way to make Hive-Engine work better for mobile? I'm trying to swap for some vyb and it's abysmal. I hate to have to wait until I'm on a desktop.

All layer 2 Hive tokens that run on Hive Engine require you to hold their own staked tokens before you can direct rewards for that token. I've never tried using hive-engine on mobile, but there's also Tribaldex from the same developers - maybe that is better?

Thanks, I'll try that. I got Hive-Engine to work once. Maybe it's just my service...

Hive-Engine is a bit buggy in general when it comes to these things. They have a notice on the site saying that a new version is coming v. soon.

I just get a spinning wheel of death...
Screenshot_20211221-101652.png

I get that too on hive engine I have to log into hive engine through peak d not sure if that will help you.

I managed to get it to work with Tribaldex, Peakd is always a little sloppy on my phone. Funny how different phones have different issues.

Mine is rly bad as I didn’t update it for so long now I lost most of my apps 🤣 and I can’t seem to install the latest update

There's a Peakd app?

I’m struggling now too the hive engine exchange tribaldex instantly logs me out and official hive engine I get a constant wheel of doom. Did you fix it?

I just tried and Tribaldex gave me issues depositing until I completely logged out and back in. I haven't tried the market yet. Hive Engine is always a mess for me.

How many do I need to be a Vyb God???? I got a few hive dollars to burn💵🔥🤑

what was criteria for airdrop?

thx! figured it had something to do with powrdown 👍 🤷

In addition to Vyb's launch, a few other tools and solutions are en route for Hive users to tackle the downvote situation. Stay tuned for an announcement soon for the new site I am working on which will provide much needed insights into the voting behaviour on Hive Layer 1! I will also be enabling Hive users to more easily counter vote downvotes they disagree with and support those involved directly with great ease.

You've been a busy boy. Don't forget to take a break over Xmas and New years.

Thanks for publishing a post for the #vyb-launch! Here is the reward breakdown;

#vyb-launch accepted comments: 76

engagement multiplier: 2

reward breakdown: 76 * 2 = 152 VYB

The engagement multiplier is X2 or X3.
X2 is applied when the author responds to the majority of their audience.
X3 is applied when all commenters have been replied to genuinely at least once, at the time of reward decision (which is right now, in this unrefreshed page).


The VYB team recommends splitting the #vyb-launch reward by 50% with your audience. It is not a rule that will be enforced or will it affect your rewards in the future from any VYB based community accounts.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year,
sending love and well-wishes on behalf of the entire VYB Team 💙

Great improvements to the toolset the community has at their disposal. I really appreciate your development of our people and the tools we have. I really hope this becomes everything you have in mind for it.

Thanks!

@gringalicious & @sincerelytori, check this out!

I just checked it out and I don't see user's reputation either. I was unaware that reputation was going to be taken out of the equation as well. Am I missing something?

I have only seen the comment from @trostparadox about rep under the whitepaper. He said:

We plan to configure the vybrainium.com front-end to completely ignore Hive reputation scores. Many seasoned Hivers acknowledge that Hive rep is pretty much a useless number.

We plan to eventually develop our own 'reputation' type metrics. However, we will put what happens with those under the control of individual curators. For example, we plan to develop a circle-voting metric, which will provide curators with information about the circle-voting tendencies of the author of each post. However, it will be up to the individual curator to decide what threshold represents 'bad' behavior and adjust their upvotes accordingly. Hopefully, we can configure the front-end such that curators can have posts hidden that exceed their own user-defined thresholds.

Ok, I did read it earlier, but forgot that little tidbit. I might use the tag and see where it goes.

Do think this is not as good as an idea, even as a moderator. But such is life, there is gotta be a way to change and check things out -:)

that rethinks the Hive reward pool for authors and promises to evolve the Proof of Brain algorithm that was originally the key selling point of Steem

You get it! The evolution of the PoB algorithm is the goal (in a roundabout way). It's funny, I have processed the info of the past couple of days and my thinking is one of:

"How is this PoB mechanism and crowd wisdom going to be successful on VYB if we have overarching DPoS dynamics still at play within the environment?"

The answer can only be...

Go big. Let entropy take effect by constantly expanding models outwards to diversify the range of voting wisdom.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this. I'm sure you're aware of the dangers that upvotes can have (not just downvotes). Obviously, telling people what to do with their votes is out of the question (unless it's proposed by the VYB Community Standards and is backed by a "code is law" style process? People seem to like that reasoning), I just want to state that.

People can answer to their Gods or Reapers when it comes to moral right and wrong.

Cheers!

DPOS REQUIRES DECENTRALISATION! The downvote dynamic has created a space where a small number of people can create a sense of almost tyrannical oppression that puts off a lot of people who aren't even on the receiving end. This is centralisation since most people don't want to join in the large downvoting in order to avoid wars and also because it just isn't in their nature to try to shut down other people's growth. Unfettered upvoting has it's own issues, so we may see bots being developed for Vyb specifically that do vote selling again. However, at least for now, the spirit of decentralisation can start to grow more again (in theory).

The larger the number of people participating in an activity (which also includes stake being spread out), the more decentralised it is. As long as only a small number of people participate in downvoting, it is a centralised act. Therefore, removing downvoting and only focusing on upvoting (which everyone is likely to participate in), in theory is good for decentralisation and growth. We shall see.

I would like to voice an argument for the most extreme caution regarding automating votes, and particularly allowing bots. Social media is an intrusion of people into this machine mediated space, and this leaves humans at distinct disadvantage to machines in deploying network influence. It is facile to so manage matters that not only are human participants partaking in a space where machines are considered equals, but where humans are relatively disempowered.

Dystopian consequences are far too easy to not predict, and damage done is all too hard to repair.

Please do not allow machines to vote on Vyb.

Thanks!

There isn't really a way to stop it other than to identify those accounts that run the bots - they can be muted.

I reckon the conflation of human agency and AI is going to become an ever more dangerous problem and a growing issue going forward. I wanted to express this view, and my hope is that you will not fail to consider it going forward. I don't want or intend to tell anyone what to do, but I can ask nicely.

Ok, just so you know, I am not involved with running VYB, so there's nothing I can do about it really - but @scholaris and @trostparadox may have insights on this.

Thanks for the mention ura-soul. trostparadox is the tribe owner of VYB. I'm working on moderation. @calumam is focused upon curation of the tribe.

Thank you, and Merry Christmas!

Hey, @valued-customer, thanks for the engagement!

I have written in the past about the 'problems' of auto-voting (see here and here for example).

I am always open to persuasive arguments that challenge my current perspectives. With that said, my current perspective is that I don't see banning auto-voting as the best approach. Same goes for muting accounts that auto-vote. I would much rather see a systems-level solution that makes such behavior less profitable than other more-beneficial (or at least non- or less-destructive) behaviors.

Instead, I am currently working on a protocol that will enable accountholders to earn the equivalent of 'curation rewards' without having to cast votes (auto or otherwise). The intention with this will be to encourage outside investors to acquire and hodl VYB, but to do so in a way that does not pollute manual curation efforts. I have envisioned a protocol that will enable investors to do just that, and in such a way that will not diminish the curation rewards of all manual curators or the author rewards of all content creators. The instantiation of this is still several weeks away (maybe a few months, even).

Outright banning or global muting are pretty severe and final, and clearly lesser means of discouragement are very desirable for moderation purposes. Regarding curation rewards, I have long advocated for their complete elimination, as they deprecate curative intent by substituting pecuniary interest, which isn't curation at all, but is merely profiteering. Whatever financial mechanism is used to produce curation rewards simply replaces the social value of the content as the reason for votes, and this utterly deranges curation, which has long impacted the trending page here.

For investors seeking a return on investment, far preferable mechanisms have long existed in the legacy financial system that present no danger of deranging curation, such as interest bearing accounts, bonds, stocks, beneficial interests of other forms, and etc. I am happy to see this is your stated intention, and hope you get it done very well, rather than asap, as getting a good mechanism in place, regardless of how long it takes, will be beneficial in the long run, while something lesser but quickly done will start doing damage right away.

Thanks for substantively addressing my concerns quickly.

Edit: I want to point you to Edicted, whom I didn't ping but you can simply add the at sign to the above to reach on Hive. He has proposed an interest mechanism that I find extremely interesting, and he can better address any interest you may have in it than can I.

@trostparadox & @valued-customer & @ura-soul,

Thank you for the in depth conversation here. It’s really got me thinking.

So what if the auto bots simply earned a different sort of token than manually curated upvotes?

i.e. Blockchain automatically identifies bot upvoting sequences (and accounts would also have the opportunity/requirement to register on a bot roster). Once identified the bot account would be rewarded in a congruent token. Manual curation would reward in an different token.

What do you think of this idea?

And let me say…

This project (culturally) is a breath of fresh air! It’s feels GREAT to be among people who are actively and critically looking for solutions, asking the questions and having the discussions that need to be asked/had, and innovating the ideas that come from those conversations.

THIS, I believe is imperative to any blockchain technology that wants to remain socially relevant.

Good job you guys! Keep on going! You have my full respect and support.

@wil.metcalfe

Blockchain automatically identifies bot upvoting sequences (and accounts would also have the opportunity/requirement to register on a bot roster). Once identified the bot account would be rewarded in a congruent token. Manual curation would reward in an different token.

What do you think of this idea?

I had a similar thought several months ago. Folks who are way smarter than me convinced me that there is no effective way to differentiate between an auto-vote and a manual vote. (This could, conceivably, be done using some form of captcha with every manual vote, but that would get really annoying really fast.)

However, something like this could conceivably be done using some sort of NFT that is delegated to accounts that have proven themselves to be manually curated. Then a token could be created that only issues based on votes cast by holders of those NFTs.

In other words, all accounts are considered 'bots' until proven otherwise. The challenge becomes how to 'verify' that a given account has been (and continues to be) manually curated. This would be far easier to do than to trying to track whether an individual vote was manually cast, imho.

Identifying bots is not a trivial thing to do and treating their rewards differently would result in a constant arms race between bot creators and the network operators - similar to how computer viruses keep being designed to bypass anti viruses. It's not a fun situation to get into for developers, but in principle it might work out to be worthwhile.

As someone that goes to live curations every day, a positive upvote on the firts 15 mins of a post, is as importand to the grow of the post than willout it, it could be death to a good post.

So is time to see what effect the upvote have with the voting wisdom of the vyb and pob community :)

Sorry for the broken english, it is my thirt languaje.

Not to worry, I understood perfectly fine.

I'm pretty relaxed when it comes to layer 1, the curation has always confused me. Definitely more interested in the early days of tribes, there is a piece to the puzzle that always cocks things up, I'm pretty sure I know what it is, we'll see 😄

Welp i dont really know much of how curation algorims works or any of those, but im sure initial votes on a post helps, at least to be noticed by others, a post of 24h and less than 1$ is gonna be forever ignored :S

But i guess you know a shitload more than me on hive XD you are a well know and well respected figure :)

....and well respected figure :)

He is?..I wish someone had told me..lol

Caluman created several initiatives for pob, from pob-wotw to many other ideas, to me he is a great guy, just for the work he leaves behind XD

One migth be a clown or a disaster, but if you help others and do great things, you are to be respected.

he's cool - it was a funny comment (hoping he would see it)..

lol, just doing the vyb.earn rewards there and saw this.

cool? I'll take it!

Hope you're keeping well fella, I have enjoyed reading your content the past couple of mornings! Keep em' coming.

Oh i get it now, sorry im really bad with humour :S

But i guess you know a shitload more than me on hive XD

I'll be honest, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to Hive. It's something that I made the decision on when I discovered POB, pretty much.

There was too much going on so I just focused on POB and myself. Improved my writing a little, got back into graphic art, made some friends. Then it just snowballed, very fun but damn was it unstable at some points. Learned a lot for VYB and introducing potential solutions, not sure if I learned a lot for Hive (we'll see how the layer 2 projects expand I guess, maybe it translates to Hive in the process).

a post of 24h and less than 1$ is gonna be forever ignored :S

What are your thoughts about evergreen posts? 😀

Who is evergreen? Ura?

In general lines, i guess pob was home for many, and you have all risen to become respected or admired to a point, envy and stuff also comes with that, but in general terms you made somethign great and i am impresed by it.

Evergreen by the almost no reward post? I dont get what you are mentioning?

My bad, "Evergreen Content"

It's basically content that continues to get rewarded even after the payout window. There have been multiple ideas floating around about it. Your comment about posts that don't get noticed early got me thinking about it some more.

In general lines, i guess pob was home for many, and you have all risen to become respected or admired to a point, envy and stuff also comes with that, but in general terms you made somethign great and i am impresed by it.

Likewise, very impressed with some of the brains that frequent this space. Keeps us sharp!

I always feel unfair when someone give downvotes without a reason. It is just like other FB you can just drop angry face and no need to say anything.

We want to be a decentralized platform so this improvement is needed. It is essential to keep improve and evolve in the future. That's what made us different. Thank you for updating us about it

You are welcome - thanks for your feedback and comment.