Weighing in on the topical discussion

in #neoxian18 days ago

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So we've seen a few pronounced hiveans talk about the differences between those that power up and hold their rewards, and those that don't and exit with the hive, money in pocket.

The topic being that we shouldn't vote those that spend more than they take out. The idea behind this is that it is net negative for hive if someone takes out more than they earn.

It's a good theory, one that may work, perhaps. I don't know? It's certainly been played out in the real world, that's for sure. Those that stack and earn, win.

The reward pool has long been a topic of discussion, and it's been quite a back and forth over these long 8 years I've been here. Quite a contentious one. One that's been argued from time in memoriam.

So here are my thoughts on the topic, and I will say that right now as hive stands it will probably remain a contentious topic for quite some time because of the way we exist and what we have here currently, but anyway. Here goes:

A healthy economy is one that both buys and sells. If you look at Bitcoin, or any of the other top 20 tokens when there's a upwards momentum gathered, there's always a recession afterwards. This is natural, this is the universal laws of nature taking control and something that none of us will ever be able to artificially manipulate.

Whenever there's a rush to have more of something (anything), the value goes up. That means two things will happen. Those that have will either want to keep it or sell some (or all of it), and those that want to have will buy it (from those that are selling) - this can be anything, my mum's knickers if that's the in-thing. Regardless,

Hive is in quite an interesting position. We're realistically one of the only tokens that requires a lengthy amount of time at the PC if you want to be part of the mining system. Sure, I mean you can buy a load of stake and power it up, and you can mine with minimal effort, but for those that want to author then there's a certain amount of time involved. Far more than any other chain. Bar initial set up it's realistically set and forget. Minimal time. Minimal effort.

But for hive not the case.

If you want to be an author especially if you're just starting out then it takes a considerable amount of time to sit here. Then learn to write in English even if English isn't your thing. If you're not a good typist or suck at writing, then boom, to pump out a half decent post it's going to take you a good couple of hours.

So in the real world, Time = Money. I know if I sat here for a lengthy amount of time I'd probably want paid for it too.

So the problem we have on hive is that we have quite a few people on here that view their time as money, which is fine, I mean I view my time as money too. But now you see, we have the problem with the people doing this every day and viewing the system as their job. And they're going to want paid to pay their bills / food etc.

Is this a problem? I'm not too sure, I mean some would say fine, yes, others would say absolutely not. I mean it's up to the onlooker.

I'm not too sure. We also really run the risk of negating the small wins for the poorer hiveans. I don't want to be involved in that. But again, freedom of choice is a thing, and why I love hive. So I'll still be helping the little guy.

Personally? I think on the whole, it's not a huge deal the small takers. I mean me for example, in the last three years I must have spent about $50,000 of my own money buying hive and splinterlands stuff on here and on hive-engine. I'm sure there's quite a few of us that when you add up all the buying, it dwarves the small takers.

The problem is when say maybe blocktrades decides to cash out 2 Million or something crazy like that. Then we have a problem. But then again, it's his money, who's to say he can't? Arguments for and against on both sides.

I've never agreed with telling people what they should do with their own money. My dad worked in Russia behind the iron curtain and I'd hear stories about too many people trying to control what people did with their time, money and family, so I'd be arguing for blocktrades to be able to cash out, even if it was going to destroy me lol. I do hate my morals and principles sometimes lol.

All in all this same discussion, the one we've been having for years and years will rage on for as long as we sit here leaking users and not building anything, or buying into what's being built on here.

The real question we should be asking ourselves is this.

How do we get more users?

More users bring more money, more money pushes our chain up in price. Then more people make money. When people make money (or see opportunity) they build new stuff. New stuff attracts more people and the cycle continues. Demand skyrockets, and the rest is history.

I keep testing retail and they seem quite allergic to crypto still, it's hard to make any waves in non-crypto. They still have a bad taste in their mouth from last bear. But this bull should bring a tasty wave of new and excited people to taste some hive.

But look at what's on hive-engine, invest a little, splurge a little. I mean we (brofund etc) are fine, but there are projects that don't get any DHF funding there that are building regardless. @cryptoshots.nft is one small example. Imagine what they would do and the new users they would attract with a small marketing budget? There's plenty of projects down here working hard but on a shoestring.

I'm not saying that we need to go all out and invest in everything built on hive's second layer, but games like splinterlands, and anything that brings in people to hive, is a winner in my opinion. For instance when I bought my chaos legion deck I spent thousands and thousands of hive.

Personally I think the saving grace of hive will not be down to stopping people from exiting their rewards, but the extra users hive attracts with the more projects that are built off the back of hive. @themarkymark proved that last time around when he built hive punks in a weekend, earned 200k hive and tipped hive price out at $3 per hive.

Does everyone need to build? No of course not. The beauty of hive is that we have many many ways to earn - and proof of brain is awesome. A bustling hive would be great to get info out. Imagine having an audience of 10,000 eager community members? Hive would be invaluable for that with the blogging aspect.

Anyway,

I digress. Just wanted to throw something out there and weigh in on the discussion.

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Apparently I'm going to have to find a reentry into Bro....

The topic being that we shouldn't vote those that spend more than they take out.

I didn't read it like that. I think they are just saying they won't be voting. I don't think they are telling anyone else what to do with their stake. Now, based on their influence people may choose to follow suit, but ultimately no one is forced.

Alrighty, I stand corrected. I'm backing down now because I didn't realise that 84% hold more than they sell. That's actually a really good statistic.

It's definitely a slippery slope. I really respect your opinions on all of this that has played out.

I hope we don't get any downvotes against anyone selling HIVE. Hive's audience is still small, and every user is valuable.

I don't see anybody give downvotes to people that sell HIVE. It's not a bad thing. I do encourage giving preference and higher upvotes to accounts building HP and using it to decentralize the user base.

That won't decentralize the user base though - that would put more HP in the hands of the few that can afford to stack. Decentralization in my eyes would be everyone, even the ones selling. The stackers will build and separate themselves from those that have not anyway.

What people don't realise is that when we have a free market such as hive (or anywhere for that matter) those that have not will sell, and those that have will keep. It's the natural law of the world.

By doing this we'll just speed up the process.

Yes, decentralization is everyone, even the sellers, but decisions (voting on content, proposals, witnesses) is done with Hive Power. I offer more support those build stake to participate in governance. Milkers are welcome to use the chain as they see fit; it's a free market like you say, but I will prefer to offer my support to people who participate by staking their HIVE. I won't downvote sellers; as I said, selling is not wrong. I just have a preference of what kind of Hive citizen I support.

Also, recent analysis by the likes of @azircon that demonstrates that MOST folks in the top 1,000 are, in fact, staking HP. He calls it the Krampus Coefficient. 84% of accounts are holding what they earn or a little more. So I disagree that holding is for the few.

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There you have it. Explained in more details here

Oh hmm. 84% then. That's actually quite good. I didn't actually realise it was that good. I always thought the laws of nature dictate there are a good 90% of people that need to sell.

We've used the entire last 200 years as a testing ground for economies that have tried to lift up the poor out of poverty which have all ended up in disaster. The few that could, seized everything and left everyone else with nothing. But again, this is nature and I don't think this problem can be solved.

But then I didn't realise there was a "keeping more than you sell" part -- that's quite neat.

I might just shup about this now lol

Doesn't account for people getting liquid rewards for whatever game, curation stuff, etc.

This is just another form of narrative enforcement.

Never trust anyone who says they don't listen to opinions. Everybody does. It's a matter of whether you can support it with a tidbit of objectivity.

Data presented properly never lies. Opinions these days are quite tricky. I therefore don't listen to opinions, just present the data. Then you can see the fact yourself.

Look at this comment thread:

https://hive.blog/hive-126152/@luizeba/re-galenkp-2024827t18278215z

They cashed out to pay the mortgage and started getting downvoted. And then in the thread the downvoter says, "I'll stop downvoting if you power back up everything you powered down" - i.e. sell your house if you want to avoid being downvoted.

So people are absolutely being attacked for using their own money to pay debt.

In my opinion this is why the steem price is catching up with hive. There is less bullying on that platform, so less incentive to quit and sell everything.

Thanks for pointing this out. I never came across such a thing. I don't support downvoting people who sell, but that's unfortunately what this account decided to do.

The idea is false in general, because the starter of it, is doing the opposite, abusing the system. By delegating a huge chunk of his stake to a curation program, that pays in liquid Hive which he takes out, without appearing in the data, he gets much more out then the average Joe he is targeting.

We are just fooled to think that there is a problem with it.

Who are you referring to?

azicorn, look at his stake, and the amount he is taking out, but doing the way with the curation accounts, it does not show on chain and as a direct curation/posting win.

As someone from a poor country, I have to say Hive has changed my life. When I just joined Hive, I’d spend 5-6 hours behind my very shitty phone and engage about 30-50 posts daily. That was my effort and how I could sink myself into the community because I sure as hell had no money to buy and power up hive.

When I began to earn, I joined the Powerup but not always. Then fast forward, I started powering down my earnings to actually build something for myself which I did. And I give more time to the Hive Community (as much as I can anyway).

The reason I say this is, for people in worse situation than I am, you can’t expect their mindset to be the same. You can’t expect people whose “3000” is your “$2” to be able to survive by giving more than they have. While I get the whole “giveback” thing, these people (some of them at least) give their time. Hours of it. So, they earned that money and can decide what to do with it. But that’s just the way I see it. It’s different for different people.

And users should be valued, not scared away. Especially when it comes to users who do actually provide value. But that’s only me. Dictating and attacking people because they don’t suit your ideals and how you view the world, when you know nothing about them or where they come from, is not nice at all. But that’s just the way I see it.

We all have different views 😉

I think this generally fits my overall view too. I've always been of the mind that we should let users be. When people make more money, some of them take that money and start up something. It's not going to be everyone, or even close to everyone, but a small portion will build on hive, and that makes it worth it in my honest opinion.

I actually came to hive with nothing also. And rich upvotes showed me what was possible, and here we are.

I took the money and ran about a year ago.... Maybe I need to get back in. I'm digging the frank discussion.

We're always here! I'm sure lots of people will have that mindset this coming bull. We have been building, that's for sure :)

The way I see it is that it is not about telling people what to do with their money. It is about being free to use your own stake to reward those who are not merely extracting everything they earn.

So the people that withdraw most of what they earn might earn a little less from people who think differently about what it means to be part of this old Hive thing.

How do you rate such a drain of extraction?

I don't look at a subset. I look at overall HP relative to what has been earned

We always look with the glasses that fit our view, isn't it?

It seems to be the case!

What account is this?

Oh I'm all for choosing who and who not to vote for because it's our stake and our decisions - I just think we should stick to what the platform was intended to be for, upvotes for half decent creators. Regardless of what they do with that money.

But hey, your choice :)

Half decent people will still get their upvotes and can indeed do what they want with their own dough, that's not going to change. They just might not get such big votes from some people. :O)

Basically, We simply need to generate more demand for hive.

VSC could be a turning point, being able to have any and all the that lovely smart contract stuff over on eth, be on hive instead and cost nothing in TX fees could be a game changer.

It also adds the benefit of completely bypassing out awful signup process and onboarding process with not requiring hive accounts to use.

If games also start building on VSC as well it could really open up hive to being a power house. Might also make hive-engine pick up speed on developing more on it's side too. one can hope.

And my view on people pulling hive out. People can do as they please first and formost with I think everyone agrees with. But I'd always advise that you at least not cash out 100%. Leave a little to slowly grow IF possible, sometimes it's not always the case.


I'm a hive witness supporting the blockchain please consider voting for me.

15% interest. 3.31% from HP, and probably 8-9% from "curation". And that doesn't even account for the DHF.

You'll need to generate a lot of demand from a platform that isn't growing its active users by 5% each year.

Thank you for your witness vote!
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This is my idea. More demand :)